I don't think the inner wheel is fully lifting off the ground, but certainly enough for the engine to spin up mid turn.

I can't disagree I know I do snap more than I should (2nd time on a track, what can you expect lol?). As much jumping around everyone [class jumps .. aka it was never the same group going out all day because everyone kept going in whenever they wanted] was doing I still never really felt like I got in touch with the car like I did the first time around, being exhausted since the beginning of the day certainly didn't help.

I will say after reviewing a few laps last night, I could tell what I was doing wrong, even though I could brake a lot later doesn't mean I should have, and definitely went in to hot to a lot of turns (T1 more importantly than anywhere else). And to no surprise that fastest lap was my smoothest lap by comparison. I was just all over the track, between all of the changes, and everything going on I was not consistent by any means. On my clean laps I was still within 2 seconds on average.

I think going into yesterday I was expecting a lot more than what I ended up with. I was expecting to be able to fllllyyyy out of T4 instead of having to kind of hold a medium speed, which I assume it was still faster than last time but it sure didn't feel like it...
I was also not expecting to hear the engine rev up through turns.. but that still happened as well lol

More experience and a solid idea on line will obviously change a lot, but as far as power.. I still feel like that's slowing it down a lot. There are plenty of times I'm pulling away from the Corvettes and some BMWs but then they catch me plenty fast.

 

Your steering input for entry is way too aggressive. And you're not slowing down for the corners enough... I see that you're just turning the front as fast as possible to get the front pointed and let the tire scrub the speed off in mid corner. Instead of slowing down before the turn, carry speed and get on the throttle at mid corner to carry out.

 

Around we go again I guess. I think I'm done though.

 

Going into T11 (the dip before the hill) I put the car into a 4 wheel slide each and every time because of the way you hit the bump you can and will regain a ton of grip as the car squats into the hill after a dip.

I put the car into all wheel slides just about every time (except not nearly as much in that video) in 3, 10, 11, and 12. Which is why I said the car is very balanced.

I still think even though the response to my steering you may think is to much, is also a combination of off camber and weird loaded turns (again, things you can only experience if you ever drive the track).


P.S. I guarantee you and will 100% tell you Top Speed's GTR is not meant to understeer one bit lol, the car did win in its class One Lap time attack.

 

Look dude, I couldn't care less if that GTR set a 49-sec lap at Tsukuba, it's got an understeer balance. There's no such thing as perfectly neutral handling. In the video, the GTR has a mild understeer case in the tighter entries and behaves better in higher speed sections. Perfectly neutral handling would entail 100% identical slip angles front and rear, and that's not realistically achievable.

Don't forget either that the handling balance changes depending on driving. A friend of mine driving the "classical" way experienced the standard understeer in my car; yet I've found myself picking up and having to catch the rear end. Same road, same car, same setup. We simply drive differently. With the way your car behaves, you will have to focus on weight transfer techniques (driving as well as setup) to make the outside rear wheel give more of its load to the inside front. You can accomplish this with more sway, more rear spring, more trail braking, more rear tire pressure, anything you want -- but you cannot sit there and claim that there's nothing wrong. You push more than a stock-suspension Speed3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co38wWKcX0s

Footnote on above video: 2:06 at Buttonwillow is pretty darn fast. I believe this Speed3 has a little more power than stock, otherwise it's alignment and tires and a good driver.

 

Pretty sure those toyos are a lot stickier as well but besides that point.

My options are:
1. Remove front sway bar
2. Lower front a bit (I don't think it will have enough effect), I would still use that for tuning.
3. Return front springs to stock BC springs; 6k springs (puts me @ 6k all around spring rates)

Before a lot of this happened I said I wanted to go stiffer rear.. but at this point I don't want to spend any more money.. not until next year at least.

* just drove a brand new mustang around the building and did that steering test with it. No surprise, mine's definitely fubarred, I just don't want to spend $800+ for a new pump.

Do you think I would only need the pump?
$600 from onlinemazdaparts.com
Or should I try to rebuild it?

 

You can remove the front sway, that'll help a lot. I do have 8k front BC springs that you could use if you must keep the sway, but that doesn't solve your wheel lifting problem (much) if your car load transfers so much that you one-wheel-peel on exit.

One further driving technique I suspect will help you is to not lift off the brakes when you're turning in. I'm pretty sure I saw a bit of that in the video. That's 911 driving technique, not FF. Brake later, stay on brakes for your initial steering input.

Don't underestimate the difference that a little rake makes. It even reduces aero lift.

 

I can't think of any reason to keep the front sway if it's still having that much of an effect.

I'm just not sure what would be more of a proper solution; softer springs or less sway (or both?)

Problem being I don't really have a solid way to test any of this anymore without going on track, I don't have these issues on the road or in the mountains, these things just showed up on track (but then again I'm not going highway speeds through turns in the mountains, nor are most turns in the mountains off-camber lol

I need to get a realignment anyways so everything is back up in the air at this point... that and I have time. No idea when my next track day will be; probably not until next year.

 

AutoX should cause the same problems to surface IF it's really a setup issue.

What I would do is check front droop first and foremost. I measured mine again last night just for you, I have 2" of wheel unloading available before the strut picks it up off the ground. If you have this much and you are still lifting wheels, we can narrow down the problem to two causes:

1) Somehow you're nearly maxing out that 2" of droop (BAD).
2) Your FSB is somehow overpowering the springs when they unload, and picking up the inside (bad, but easily solvable).

Thus, taking out your FSB will tell you whether or not #1 is at play. You have problems if if is. With no FSB it should be much harder to pick up the inner front wheel as the spring will continue to push down as long as you have weight on that end of the car. Just don't floor the throttle at the apex and it should go.

 

Sunday was the last local Autox lol That's why I say I'm pretty much out unless I join in another trackday this year but I don't really want to.


I should have at least 2" of wheel unloading, I should've checked I literally just put the car back on the ground. I seriously have no idea what it's doing, I don't see how it's possible that it's lifting it off the ground either, but it is revving the motor up on some of the turns when I'm trying to put power down.

On the plus side with the stock FSB I can actually undo the corksport endlinks and leave the bar in place since the bushes hold it in place (wasn't the case with the hotchkis, so I can play with that for sure.

I lowered the front 1/4" doubt it will make much / any difference [on the road] but that's where it is at now. Sadly again like I was saying I can't seem to test this in daily driving as there's nowhere I can find that will give the same results as on track.


@Flatlander, if you're still hunting around, measurements from center of inner bolt on LCAs to center (center of ball) joint is 14 1/2"
center of balljoint to center of balljoint (unsure how accurate this is but should be darn close) from left to right side I got 58 5/8s.. that measurement however was taken with the car in the air (fyi)

 

On the plus side with the stock FSB I can actually undo the corksport endlinks and leave the bar in place since the bushes hold it in place (wasn't the case with the hotchkis, so I can play with that for sure.

FYI, for just a temporary test, we used to disconnect just one end link, and zip tie it to the arm of the sway bar so it wouldn't drag. If the sway bar isn't connected to both sides of the axle, it really isn't going to do its job.


Sent from my iPhone with Tapatalk.

 

I tried a zip tie on the hotchkis (2 actually; both sides)

they both snapped off in a matter of a 5 minute drive bwhahha
Need more sturdy zip ties I suppose. But fair enough. I just didn't want to have it on either sides since the bushes do give a bit of drag against the rotation of it making it uneven.

 

Yeah I've made zero progress even trying to fix the calculations.... I discovered "Breaking Bad" and watched seasons 1+2 over the weekend, 3 today since I stayed home with my son(had a fever), and starting 4 tonight. This show is ridiculously addictive/awesome.

 

LOLOL!

I tried to watch an episode.. could not get into it :/

If you need ANY measurements let me know.. before 5 tomorrow.
I'm going down to mazmart and can get measurements of whatever parts (off car)

 

Just do everything you can man.

Geometry of front end:
Pivot points of strut pillow bearings (0 camber)
Pivot points of strut pillow bearings (2.0 camber) (These will give an idea of how much we actually move the camber plate between camber settings)
LCA pivot axes (on the subframe)
LCA ball joints (on the knuckle)
Strut body angle
FSB brackets and endlinks

Geometry of rear end:
Pivot points of camber arm (0 camber)
Pivot points of camber arm (2.0 camber)
LCA inner pivot (eccentric)
LCA outer pivot
Toe link inner pivot
Toe link outer pivot
Spring and Shock mounting points
(Bonus) trailing arm pivot point

 

lol well now I know for a fact on flat ground I'm lifting my rear inside wheel.. hadn't experienced that before, that was interesting.


At any rate sorry I got no numbers, ended up only spending a few minutes last time just to pick up a part, I had to get out of there to pack for the trackdays last weekend.

I'm going back down there today for .. I'm not sure what reason yet but I've been asked to. I'll check out what I can and see if I can get any measurements.

 

Finally got around to putting on the Whiteline Bump steer kit.

It's kind of annoying in a sense that the instructions say "remove heat shield", "locate and remove 3 bolts holding down steering arm", "replace 3 bolts with provided bolts and spacers"

So after looking at my steering rack for.. at LEAST 15 minutes (not kidding), looking everywhere from every angle.

What the fuck....

There are only 2 bolts, where'd the 3rd one come from or go to?
Anyone else have 3? Because I only have 2 lol...

Anyways, the ride height is now settled and balanced up front, I'm at 13 7/8ths from axle centerline to fender for whatever that value is worth.

This is now how it looks.
(don't mind the oil down the side.. was from replacing power steering pump as well)

Guess it's hard to see it, after looking at old pictures never really got a good accurate point of reference.

It raises it about eh.. quarter inch I believe?
Haven't really had a good time to feel it out, pump feels a bit better, but still boggy when I really work hard at it, I just feel like it isn't keeping up with me, but it catches up.. Steering does feel a touch lighter though, not hugely, but some.

Next on order is to do the same as adam and get megan toe arms and bring the rears in.

 

Is the rear toe that off?

 

what's that.. on my car?

Just the angle of the picture, the rear toe is still zeroed out.

 

Is the rear toe that off as to require arms? Or are you just upgrading to upgrade?

 

upgrading to upgrade.

Really I'm awaiting how adam feels about it after autocrossing on his setup, but also yes just upgrading to upgrade.

I need to get an alignment, and so I like to stack things up so I don't feel like I'm wasting my money (as much) lol

 

You high bro -- I'm just over 13.5" from fender to axle. In all likelihood that means my arms are below parallel of course. I haven't driven my car hard in a while but I do remember that after going high, I've been gradually bringing the front end back down as it seems to help avoid tracking out under power.

 

So about this steering heim joint with washers as shims idea....

link to very very awesome MG racecar build for GT2
http://www.britishracecar.com/PhilLeonard-MG-RV8.htm

What doesn't surprise me is this, this is the same thing that TriPoint did on their race car.

 

doesn't hold up to DD, not sealed, will corrode/rust/oxidize with road grime

 

Nah, a quality rod end will last quite a while under DD use. I've got them on my rear bar, and they've been fine for a year or so, including Rochester winter.

I check them whenever I'm under the car, and I do have spares ready, but they are fine. A bit of surface rust on the housing, but the joint itself is perfectly fine.

I'm sure junky ones will corrode faster.

 

my tripoints on the sway bar haven't had any issues, I guess it will 100% where you live.

Just curious about that setup with adjustments to bump steer, along with steering tightness how much it "would" improve, if it even could.