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How-to: How you are REALLY supposed to bleed brakes on your Mazda3

176K views 21 replies 16 participants last post by  3.2s  
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm sure you have heard when bleeding brakes... you "start at the wheel furthest away and work closer to the master cylinder." This does not apply to the Mazda 3... it has a diagonally split brake hydraulic system... not a front/rear split like cars of yester-year and most trucks/SUVs.

The left rear and right front calipers are on the same circuit in the MC... and the right rear and left front circuits to share the same port.

The benefit to this is that you will only lose 50% of your braking ability should one circuit start leaking. In a FWD car with a front/rear split, if you lost the front then you would lose about 70+% of your braking ability... not to mention locking up rear brakes would potentially spin you in a hurry, making the situation even worse.


The only reason that the old "start with the wheel furthest from the MC" BS was started was that back in the day cars only had ONE type of brake hydraulic circuit... the fronts were on their own circuit, and the rears were on their own circuit. So of course the rears are the furthest away... so going by that logic you bleed the rear circuit before the fronts... which is exactly how you're supposed to do it on a front/rear split system.


When you bleed the brakes in the "old" and wrong method(on a diagonally split system)... you bleed the right rear just fine... but when you go to the left rear next, you are starting a new circuit entirely... so every time you pump the pedal to bleed the left rear, you are sloshing brake fluid in the RR-LF circuit back and forth, adding a zillion bubbles of air because the new fluid you JUST put in there is getting aerated because it's not going out in one direction. At the very least, you are intermixing old and new fluid... defeating the purpose of bleeding brakes.


Also, I constantly see people struggle with bleeding brakes and nearly EVERYBODY completely screws it up and ends up with only an "acceptable" pedal when done, while thinking it's as good as it gets... but when done properly it is so much better.

The proper way to bleed brakes is to do this(for each wheel... in the correct order... discussed below) if you have a helper available:

1) Have a helper stand on the brake pedal

2) Crack bleeder screw. (Your helper will/should feel the pedal go to the floor... make sure they do not let up until step 4!) Use a clear hose to watch bubbles leave the system and pay attention to the color of the fluid.

3) Close the bleeder screw when the flow stops

4) Have the helper SLOWLY let the pedal up

HERE IS WHERE EVERYBODY COMPLETELY SCREWS IT UP!!! IMPORTANT: DO NOT under ANY circumstances let your helper "pump up the brake pedal." All they are doing is aerating the fluid and introducing more air into the system that you just started bleeding. It is a LOT easier to get out one large air bubble than it is to get 10,000 little micro-bubbles out of the system. The smaller the air bubbles, the more likely they are to stick to the walls of the inside of the tubing... letting fluid go around the air and defeating the purpose of bleeding.

5) Have the helper step on the pedal again... note that it will feel soft and feel like crap, etc etc. Again... do NOT pump the pedal until the VERY VERY end! Fluid WILL come out when the bleeder is cracked! Just the pedal will not feel very responsive until the END.

6) Crack the bleeder screw again and watch the fluid leave the hose again. You can even listen for air bubbles and know if you're in a not-too-loud environment

7) Close bleeder when the flow stops

8) Have the helper slowly let the pedal up again

Then you repeat this until the wheel you're bleeding is good, then go to the next wheel. BE SURE TO CHECK THE MASTER CYLINDER RESERVOIR CONSTANTLY TO ENSURE YOU DO NOT RUN IT DRY! GETTING AIR OUT OF THE SYSTEM WHEN THE M/C INGESTS AIR IS CONSIDERABLY MORE TIME CONSUMING. I generally top off the M/C at the start of each wheel and check/top off about every 4-5 "pumps" with the bleeder open. Start out checking a bit more often to get a grasp on how quickly the fluid is displaced to minimize the risk of putting air into your system!!!

AGAIN... DO NOT "PUMP PUMP PUMP PUMP PUMP" to make the pedal "feel" hard until all 4 wheels are bled and you are done. It doesn't matter what the pedal feels like while bleeding, the idea is to only make the fluid move in ONE direction... that is towards the calipers and out of the bleeder. By pumping it, you slosh it back and forth and intermix good fluid with bad, and more importantly(and stupidly) fluid with air if there is any present.

I guarantee you will not get a better feeling pedal by doing it any other way manually.

I bled the brakes on my 09 Mazda3i last weekend and verified it is indeed diagonally split hydraulically.

Image


(Sorry for the super crappy quality pic... my phone's camera is terrible)

I figured it out by having my friend hold the brake pedal, I cracked the right rear bleeder, and with him still standing on the pedal to hold it at the floor, I walked around to see which rotors I could spin by hand. Surprise-surprise... with the right rear bleeder cracked, the right front and the left rear rotors were clamped solidly... the right rear and left front were free to spin since there is no hydraulic pressure acting on the pistons(since I had the bleeder cracked).

Mystery solved. If you don't believe me then try it for yourself next time you bleed your brakes.

I bled the brakes out with some Prestone DOT 4 in the following order:

(2)LF - RF(4)
...|xxxxxxx|
...|xxxxxxx|
...|xxxxxxx|
...|xxxxxxx|
(3)LR---RR(1)


Or spelled out plainly: Right rear, then left front, then the left rear, then the right front.

The pedal feels amazing now by the way... I really didn't expect to feel a super noticeable difference since it's only an 09 model year with only 36k miles. It's much easier to modulate since it feels more linear.

I will add that in all reality, the order that you bleed the brakes does not really matter... as long as you bleed one circuit entirely before starting on the other. I think the "start at the line furthest away" thing is mainly so you fill the longest line with fresh fluid first.

One more thing to add: If you think you have air bubbles remaining in the system, -a slight- modification to the bleeding procedure above can be done to aid in forcing the air bubbles past high spots.

Tell your helper to let the pedal up, then you open the bleeder... instruct them to STOMP on the pedal as hard/fast as they can, and hold it to the floor(do NOT allow it to come back up)... then you close the bleeder. I tend to do this once or twice after the fluid "appears" good at each wheel to make sure there isn't anything trapped that I don't know about... then finish up with one last "pump" with the typical method above. Neither method will introduce air into the system, it's just what I happen to do.

I posted this in another thread on brake bleeding but thought that it might be beneficial to make its own thread.

I take no responsibility for anything you mess up because you fail to follow my directions or misunderstand something or lack common sense or because of other problems with whatever the hell you're driving.
 
#2 ·
And a few more bits to expand on the first post:

- When starting bleeding, obviously you have a M/C full of old fluid. If you have the means to do so, suck all the old fluid out with a vacuum pump(or siphon... warning: brake fluid tastes aweful :shock:). If your brake fluid is indeed old, you will be able to notice a change in color when it comes out of the bleed screws. Pay attention and keep the M/C full. I will generally bleed the first wheel by going down to the MIN level in the M/C about 2-3 times(and topping off each time).

- I checked at work, and I could find no official information on Mazda's recommended bleeding procedure. There is a lot of bad information out there... even from OEM manufacturers on bleeding brakes. Believe it or not, Chrysler is the only one that has it right... which is the procedure I detailed(the whole "pump pump pump" thing is what I'm referring to. Bleeding order varies by the vehicle in question).

- When the time comes to replace brake pads... and you need to compress the caliper pistons, the best way to do it is to crack the bleeder screws and compress the piston so the old fluid at the calipers is pushed out of the system. Reason being is that all the nastiest crap in your brake system settles at the calipers... those are the lowest points in the system so naturally where all the grit and doo doo butter sits. I would just do this for the fronts... because of the e-brake rear piston needing to be screwed in.. it is super awkward to do this and just isn't worth it IMO. This is just a good practice of preventative maintenance to keep caliper pistons from seizing. I still don't do it all the time if I'm feeling super lazy :whistle2: I will follow up by bleeding the brakes though.








Hope somebody finds this useful :)
 
#4 ·
Finally!!!! Someone who knows what they're talking about!!! The first time I changed the brakes on my 3 (circa 2007), I too noticed that the system is diagonally-split. I noticed it from the same instance you explained. With the bleeder open on one side, it's diagonal counterpart will not lock up with the brake applied, but the other two will. I tried explaining to my family and friends that it isn't a good idea to pump the brake. Because they (brothers and friend) were all in agreement, I was automatically wrong. I decided not to let any of them "help" me with any type of maintenance. This is a great writeup and I vote "sticky"!
 
#5 ·
[quote author=sicride8724 link=topic=209384.msg4217863#msg4217863 date=1334471156]
Finally!!!! Someone who knows what they're talking about!!!
[/quote]



nice work!! we hope we have many more people like you in this forum!! unlike other s_ni_r members who is misleading other members..
 
#8 ·
This is great info and I vote for a sticky too.
 
#9 ·
[quote author=sicride8724 link=topic=209384.msg4217886#msg4217886 date=1334482144]
Ew! I love hangman!

s_ni_r members....

Hmmmm. This one's a tough one.... Senior Members?
[/quote]

i guess i should made it harder next time.. lol

the "newly inducted s_ni_r member" i've seen so far has nothing good to say and are the ones destroying this forum.

vote for sticky on this one as well!! very valuable info flatlander937!!
 
#10 ·
Finally!!!! Someone who knows what they're talking about!!! The first time I changed the brakes on my 3 (circa 2007), I too noticed that the system is diagonally-split. I noticed it from the same instance you explained. With the bleeder open on one side, it's diagonal counterpart will not lock up with the brake applied, but the other two will. I tried explaining to my family and friends that it isn't a good idea to pump the brake. Because they (brothers and friend) were all in agreement, I was automatically wrong. I decided not to let any of them "help" me with any type of maintenance. This is a great writeup and I vote "sticky"!
Yep... typical "the Earth is flat" repeaters of BS make getting good information nearly impossible. It gets passed on and passed on from word of mouth and if you try to suggest they are wrong... they'll find 10 more sheeple who do the same (incorrect) thing... so in that circle you are the one who doesn't know :boxing:

If one of your brothers or the other "correct" people(lol) ever replace a master cylinder and after bench bleeding and it's time to bleed the lines... after doing the pump-pump-pump thing a few hundred times, look in the master cylinder. You may even see a thousand tiny air bubbles floating around inside it :shock: I think the Mazda master cylinder makes it a bit tough to see because of baffles in the master. On older cars like piece of crap Trans-Ams and stuff with a giant honking master cylinder, it's plain as day to see if you pump a hundred times.

You won't move any more fluid by pumping it up... It might be frustrating when completely bleeding an entirely dry brake system, but you will screw yourself over ten-fold if you pump-pump-pump to try and get the pedal feeling hard before you're getting clean and clear brake fluid with no bubbles out in the end. As long as there is fluid in the master, and the master cylinder is functioning, it will move fluid when pressed....

When the pedal is pressed down repeatedly to "pump it up" this froths the fluid around.. ESPECIALLY when trying to bleed an empty system, air bubbles get frothed into and around both the compensating and bypass ports in the master cylinder... and become visible in the master because the compensating port allows fluid to flow between the master reservoir and the brake hydraulic circuit when the brake is not pressed.... Where-as if you follow the procedure above(by lifting the brake pedal SLOWLY as I said)... this gives the bypass port long enough to dump fluid from the master reservoir into the hydraulic circuit to take up the space of the piston as you release it. I usually let the pedal up at a rate of about 3-4 seconds from floor to all the way up. I am honest that I have no idea if that long is needed, but it's never given me a problem, and it's a reasonable amount of time so take it for what it is.

Here is a quick link I googled that explains the master cylinder's bypass and compensating ports in more detail if you want to learn:

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/brake02.pdf

Does order matter as much if you are using a pneumatic bleeder (sucking the fluid through)?
With that you only pump at the end, and the pedal does get pretty darn solid.
I don't think it would... because of the same reason I stated a pressure bleeder technically shouldn't matter(fluid direction is moving one way... not a possibility of sloshing it back and forth like when you press the pedal if not done right)... but in my experience I absolutely hate vacuum bleeders.

-They are hard to judge if you're seeing air from the system... or if it's air leaking from around the bleeder screw.

-Something about the vacuum just isn't as effective at getting air out of the system. With the pedal method you are generating pressure which is much better at moving air bubbles that are "stuck" on the insides of the brake lines. Next time you go to a fast food place and order a soda... when you're towards the bottom look into your straw. Try sucking as hard/fast as you can and see if you can get ALL the little bubbles of whatever off the inside edges of the straw... Then try blowing through it to do the same thing. My best guess is that pressure is more "violent" in pushing a "wall" of fluid down the line... where as vacuum just kinda sucks it gingerly out. I will say that having a vacuum bleeder is nice when starting a bleed of a complete empty system so your wife doesn't get mad at you asking her to pump and hold ten thousand times before you even see fluid at the caliper :shock:



And everyone else: Thanks! :lol:
 
#14 ·
Started changing my pads, rotors, and fluid this past Saturday..... did not all go as planned.

Fluid specifically, the end result would suggest that we were doing it wrong, even while using a speed bleeder which was supposed to make the job a whole lot easier (only got 1 speed bleeder installed and used before the whole job went to hell). Ended up driving around with no brakes and only the e-brake to slow down while going to find any garage open at 5PM on a Saturday (needed the garage not for the fluid problem but rather the front rotors).

So good info, but even with following directions people are sure to screw things up! lol
 
#17 ·
[quote author=jT09 link=topic=209384.msg4221247#msg4221247 date=1335185592]
Started changing my pads, rotors, and fluid this past Saturday..... did not all go as planned.

Fluid specifically, the end result would suggest that we were doing it wrong, even while using a speed bleeder which was supposed to make the job a whole lot easier (only got 1 speed bleeder installed and used before the whole job went to hell). Ended up driving around with no brakes and only the e-brake to slow down while going to find any garage open at 5PM on a Saturday (needed the garage not for the fluid problem but rather the front rotors).

So good info, but even with following directions people are sure to screw things up! lol
[/quote]

I hate the speed bleeders with a passion.

They rely on the THREADS of the bleeder to seal 100% when you are letting the brake pedal up... if they do not(and they never do)... they allow air to get sucked in.

This is a similar reason why I dislike vacuum bleeders(air gets sucked through the threads... making it hard to discern if you're sucking air from the system, or around the bleeder threads).. but with a vacuum bleeder, you aren't sucking air into the BRAKE SYSTEM... just the vacuum bleeder. This is why using a pressure bleeder is ideal(but $$), with having 2 people doing it manually being the 2nd most optimal way... using pressure to move the fluid is no problem if a bit leaks around the bleeder screws... but if you're trying to pull a vacuum on the system(which is essentially what is happening when you let the pedal up slowly)... any leaks will let air in.

If you are dead set on making them work... you need to wrap them in a shitload of thread sealing tape(pipe tape, plumbers dope, etc whatever you want to call it) for them to seal. Even then, you have no way of watching them to make sure they're sealed.

Best bet is to do as I said above to a "T" and that includes having a helper so it can be monitored at both ends... the pedal and the wheel.
 
#18 · (Edited)
question, was doing my brakes yesterday and noticed the brake/clutch fluid is contained in the same reservoir.

if i bleed my brake fluid, does that mean i have to do my clutch fluid too?

if so, what are the steps?

edit; nvm i got it squared away.

make sure you bleed twice both the clutch and brake to make sure your running 100% new fluids since brake and clutch share same reservoir.

cheers
 
#19 ·
Bumping an old thread to ask a potentially stupid question.

I just went through a nightmare with my girlfriend's Buick where air got trapped in the ABS valve gizmo, and no amount of conventional bleeding would dislodge it. I swear I have half a gallon of "used" brake fluid waiting to be disposed of now. The car is now at a shop that has the scan tool required to debug the ABS valve module - apparently, this is required for the procedure with that ABS design.

On my similar vintage Toyota MR2 Spyder, doing as the OP in this thread said worked fine; it was basically just like any other car, despite the presence of ABS, so the nightmare with the Buick absolutely requiring a scan tool to accomplish this was a new and humbling experience.

My question is, if you get air into the master cylinder or ABS unit on a Mazda3, is the ABS/traction control designed in such a way that actuating the valves with a pricy scan tool is going to be necessary to dislodge it? My 2011 Mazda3 is nearing the change interval for its brake fluid, and I'd just as soon that task not turn into a nightmare.
 
#20 ·
If enough air gets leaked into the system, yes, a dealership will have to run a machine to pump all the bubbles out and run the ABS system.
I don't know if this has typically been a problem for most people though. If it is though and want to get it done "right," take it to a dealership as they have the proper equipment for the car.

Normal scan tools won't be able to do it.
 
#21 · (Edited)
The way around using a scan tool is to bleed the brakes the best you can, then go drive it on a gravel/dirt/low traction surface and slam on the brakes to activate the ABS. This will pump the ABS motor and push air bubbles elsewhere into the system where they can later be bled out conventionally. Honestly after just doing this, most of the time the pedal goes from crap to firm immediately after the ABS runs. Still I recommend to bleed once more just to be sure.

I've had to do this to multiple different GM vehicles and never had a problem, some have taken 2 or 3 bleedings to do it(bleed, go drive to activate ABS, bleed again, etc).

The only way that you will screw it up like this while just bleeding the brakes is if you allow the master cylinder to run dry while bleeding.