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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I'm swaping in a motor for my 2011 3 and after fighting the old engine out with that double stacked crank pulley I thought well let's pop the one off the motor going in and make things a tad easier. So after I took the bolt out I realize that may have been a small mistake. Is lower timing gear not keyed to the crank either? I got the engine mated to the trans and bolt in the flex plate then came in to take a break and see if there's more to the bolt thing than what meets the eye. Then a read a little and now I'm trying to figure out which way to go now. I have one engine that was running fine (besides a rod knock) still to help get everything back in time and one engine that has tossed a rod cap out the side of the block to experiment with. Can someone help point me to the procedure for retiming this motor before I get much more involved?
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Yes, there are no keyways on these and once you remove the crank bolt, it's instantly out of time. The timing procedure is very easy though but it does require a couple special tools technically.

Massive speed's kit is the best quality for the money that I've seen. You can buy them from their eBay store: Massive Absolute Cam Timing Alignment Tool Set Pin Bar Zetec Duratec 2.0 2.3 2.5 | eBay

A quick YouTube search came up with this guy that demonstrates the process:

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That video is okay, but there are some issues with it. The most important is that there are two friction washers and he only replaced one. There is another behind the crankshaft sprocket which should also be replaced. Second is that it is probably better to do this with a wrench and not an impact gun.
 

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That video is okay, but there are some issues with it. The most important is that there are two friction washers and he only replaced one. There is another behind the crankshaft sprocket which should also be replaced. Second is that it is probably better to do this with a wrench and not an impact gun.
Yeah I saw that, the spec after initial torque is 90 degrees, I usually use a breaker bar but technically an impact I guess works. The dude in the video also has the crank pulley holder. You WILL need the crank locator bolt that goes through the hole into the timing cover, it didn't come with the timing kits weirdly. The spec is 6mm x 18mm metric which you can get at most hardware stores. If you can't find the exact length, just make sure when you're threading it in, you don't go too far or else you'll blow a hole on backside of the timing cover (ask me how I know).

Here's the deal, there's a 'service manual' way to do it, and then there's the DIY'er getting it done way. I've rebuilt and had many of these motors apart and the way that has always worked for me is to just locate everything using their respective tools, cams with the bar and crank with the plug.

I don't have or have ever used the pulley hold tool demonstrated in the video. I've always just left the locating tools in, inserted the hold bolt for the pulley and then first torqued the bolt to the initial spec. After the first torque spec you have to do the 90 degrees. I remove the crank pulley locator bolt and cam bar but leave the crankshaft plug in and the plug is strong enough to set the final torque okay. Again, technically not the recommended way but has always worked for me.

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
After posting this I went ahead and looked at a little more. Oddly enough I have a 2.3 with a newly formed inspection port for the 1 cylinder. After looking at the kits and stuff I was looking at all the stuff laying on the bench and it occurred to me the exhaust studs are the exact correct length to set the crank TDC just make sure the torx is on the high spot. I got the motor carefully rolled around to the compression stroke just before TDC.

Also i didn't know it when i was doing it but i made a machine that did the casting flash removal for these engines about 20 years ago when the company i worked for was doing after cast operations for Ryobi
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Yeah I saw that, the spec after initial torque is 90 degrees, I usually use a breaker bar but technically an impact I guess works. The dude in the video also has the crank pulley holder. You WILL need the crank locator bolt that goes through the hole into the timing cover, it didn't come with the timing kits weirdly. The spec is 6mm x 18mm metric which you can get at most hardware stores. If you can't find the exact length, just make sure when you're threading it in, you don't go too far or else you'll blow a hole on backside of the timing cover (ask me how I know).

Here's the deal, there's a 'service manual' way to do it, and then there's the DIY'er getting it done way. I've rebuilt and had many of these motors apart and the way that has always worked for me is to just locate everything using their respective tools, cams with the bar and crank with the plug.

I don't have or have ever used the pulley hold tool demonstrated in the video. I've always just left the locating tools in, inserted the hold bolt for the pulley and then first torqued the bolt to the initial spec. After the first torque spec you have to do the 90 degrees. I remove the crank pulley locator bolt and cam bar but leave the crankshaft plug in and the plug is strong enough to set the final torque okay. Again, technically not the recommended way but has always worked for me.

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So my question is do I need diamond powder in addition to the new crank bolt? I've seen it mentioned a couple times but don't really see it when searching for the bolt which pops up everywhere.
 

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After posting this I went ahead and looked at a little more. Oddly enough I have a 2.3 with a newly formed inspection port for the 1 cylinder. After looking at the kits and stuff I was looking at all the stuff laying on the bench and it occurred to me the exhaust studs are the exact correct length to set the crank TDC just make sure the torx is on the high spot. I got the motor carefully rolled around to the compression stroke just before TDC.

Also i didn't know it when i was doing it but i made a machine that did the casting flash removal for these engines about 20 years ago when the company i worked for was doing after cast operations for Ryobi View attachment 106907



So my question is do I need diamond powder in addition to the new crank bolt? I've seen it mentioned a couple times but don't really see it when searching for the bolt which pops up everywhere.
According to service info you're supposed to use all new "hardware". I typically don't and have never had any issues, but do as you will at your own discretion.

I did actually find this procedure online if it helps at all. It is pointed at the focus but the info is all the same.

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Mazda says to replace the diamond washer between the pulley and the crank gear if only the pulley is removed and both diamond washers if the crank gear is removed. Ford says to make sure washer is in place and only replace if damaged. They are the same engine with two different recommended one time use parts. And like BlueKoda said, it’s at your discretion, it’s your motor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Mazda says to replace the diamond washer between the pulley and the crank gear if only the pulley is removed and both diamond washers if the crank gear is removed. Ford says to make sure washer is in place and only replace if damaged. They are the same engine with two different recommended one time use parts. And like BlueKoda said, it’s at your discretion, it’s your motor.
Man I bet this happens a lot. Wow.

I saw the other post about the guy with the 2010 that couldn't get it to start after a engine swap.
 

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Yeah I saw that, the spec after initial torque is 90 degrees, I usually use a breaker bar but technically an impact I guess works. The dude in the video also has the crank pulley holder. You WILL need the crank locator bolt that goes through the hole into the timing cover, it didn't come with the timing kits weirdly. The spec is 6mm x 18mm metric which you can get at most hardware stores. If you can't find the exact length, just make sure when you're threading it in, you don't go too far or else you'll blow a hole on backside of the timing cover (ask me how I know).

Here's the deal, there's a 'service manual' way to do it, and then there's the DIY'er getting it done way. I've rebuilt and had many of these motors apart and the way that has always worked for me is to just locate everything using their respective tools, cams with the bar and crank with the plug.

I don't have or have ever used the pulley hold tool demonstrated in the video. I've always just left the locating tools in, inserted the hold bolt for the pulley and then first torqued the bolt to the initial spec. After the first torque spec you have to do the 90 degrees. I remove the crank pulley locator bolt and cam bar but leave the crankshaft plug in and the plug is strong enough to set the final torque okay. Again, technically not the recommended way but has always worked for me.

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I've always done these with the engine out of the car. This makes it easy to hold the crank from turning by putting some bolts in either the flywheel or the flex plate and putting a breaker bar across them. I have also used a universal crank pulley holding tool, but the extreme torque of the final 90 degree tightening can bend these some. I admit it would be much more challenging trying to do this procedure in car. We have done at least six of these engines, in replacing the garbage 2.3 with the much better 2.5. Following the book and good practices, we have never had one issue with any of them. Some of these have been redos of DIY'ers and ill informed mechanics who do stuff like reuse friction washers, use impact guns, reuse bolts, etc and these result in timing failures and trashed engines. It's not really difficult to do it the correct way, and the tools are cheap and easily available. Oh, and the little bolt that goes in 6 o'clock in the crank pulley, just finger tighten this, it is just to assure that the pulley is at the correct position, it doesn't need to be gorilla tight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Got the new bolt and washer from Autozone this morning and got the timing set and the bolt locked down. It wasn't to bad in the car. I made the timing pin thing for the side of the block and the bar thing for up top. Now reassembly can resume. Thanks for the encouragement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
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Well she fired right up sounded good. It was so quiet I wasn't sure if it was running or not. There's always a bit apprehension when starting a used motor you never heard that was shipped in from 500 miles away. I had a little fopa with a ground bracket right after the initial startup but got that figured out pretty quick.

We bought this car with a knocking motor for a little gas saver. She drove it to work for the 1st time last night it looks like it will be a winner. Now I just need to bring the suspension maintenance up to snuff and this should be a good little car for a while.

I dismantled the interior and gave it a good cleaning yesterday. These cars are super easy to do that way 14 bolt and 4 screws and you can have all the seats out I went ahead and took the carpet out also and power washed it.
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View attachment 106919 View attachment 106920
Well she fired right up sounded good. It was so quiet I wasn't sure if it was running or not. There's always a bit apprehension when starting a used motor you never heard that was shipped in from 500 miles away. I had a little fopa with a ground bracket right after the initial startup but got that figured out pretty quick.

We bought this car with a knocking motor for a little gas saver. She drove it to work for the 1st time last night it looks like it will be a winner. Now I just need to bring the suspension maintenance up to snuff and this should be a good little car for a while.

I dismantled the interior and gave it a good cleaning yesterday. These cars are super easy to do that way 14 bolt and 4 screws and you can have all the seats out I went ahead and took the carpet out also and power washed it. View attachment 106917 View attachment 106918
Congrats, glad it all worked out

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
An old exhaust manifold stud for the crank position it needed to be machined (necked down similar to the plug in the side of the block)to work in the car. If out of the car nothing has to be done. Just try to make it so the high point on the star is contacting the crank. It's not but a few thousands of difference between the high and low, but make every effort to do a half assed job the best way possible.

One valve cover bolt for the balancer placement.

For the cams I used a piece of 1/8" x 3/4" aluminum flat bar. Although 3/16" would've been tighter as long as the gap is similar it would be fine.
 

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What tools or technique did you use to hold the timing components in place while tightening the crank pulley bolt?
An old exhaust manifold stud for the crank position it needed to be machined (necked down similar to the plug in the side of the block)to work in the car. If out of the car nothing has to be done. Just try to make it so the high point on the star is contacting the crank. It's not but a few thousands of difference between the high and low, but make every effort to do a half assed job the best way possible.

One valve cover bolt for the balancer placement.

For the cams I used a piece of 1/8" x 3/4" aluminum flat bar. Although 3/16" would've been tighter as long as the gap is similar it would be fine.
Kudos to Bandit for making it work. The actual tools are pretty cheap and quite a bit easier.

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
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Kudos to Bandit for making it work. The actual tools are pretty cheap and quite a bit easier.

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But then I'd have to wait for them and we'll it just ain't that complicated. I'm not sure they're any easier it's a bolt that screws in the side of the block, a flat bar, and 1 bolt. If you have the car you already own 2/3rds of everything you need technically. That's all I'm saying.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
What tools or technique did you use to hold the timing components in place while tightening the crank pulley bolt?
Okay I answered a couple times since you asked the question and then though maybe you were asking something else. I used the aforementioned pieces to get the engine in time. Crude and rudimentary yes absolutely but they worked and I didn't spent no money.

I left everything in place and brought the crank bolt to 75ftlbs. To hold the crank in my particular case the starter was out so I used a short 3/8" flathead screwdriver in the teeth of the flexplate. After reaching 75ftlbs I removed everything holding it in time checking for any damage and verifying everything was still where I started. Then back under the car mark the crank bolt with something easily legible and made a reference mark on the bolt and crank pulley. Then put the screwdriver back in the flex plate and crank the pulley bolt home to the 90deg point . I went one extra step after that and had a celebratory adult beverage.
 

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I’ve just never done this with the engine in. We put two large bolts through opposite holes in the flex plate and place a long pipe across them for leverage to prevent the engine from turning as the bolt is turned the extra 90 degrees. Even this requires significant effort and the two bolts (grade 10.9 M12) emerge slightly bent. That’s why I haven’t been able to envision a screwdriver tip in the flex plate shallow teeth being sufficient to hold the engine against this much torque. Congratulations for making this work for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I’ve just never done this with the engine in. We put two large bolts through opposite holes in the flex plate and place a long pipe across them for leverage to prevent the engine from turning as the bolt is turned the extra 90 degrees. Even this requires significant effort and the two bolts (grade 10.9 M12) emerge slightly bent. That’s why I haven’t been able to envision a screwdriver tip in the flex plate shallow teeth being sufficient to hold the engine against this much torque. Congratulations for making this work for you.
I was a bit surprised myself after reading up on this thing it really appeared a bit tougher than it ended up being.

The funny thing was I did a trial setup on the motor that came out which was running with a knock of course and the crank pulley was off by about bolt width. Despite the knock and that misalignment it ran pretty decent I drove it around just a little to try and evaluate the condition of the car before buying a motor for it.
 
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