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Discussion Starter #1
So I saw the very disturbing documentary titled "The Devil Came on Horseback" about the genocide happening in the Sudan - where the government run by Arabs is engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Dafur region of Sudan, killing and raping all of the "Black" or "non-Arabs" in that area. The Arabs carrying out the killings believe the "blacks" are less human or more primitive humans that should be exterminated from the land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_Came_on_Horseback

Unfortunately, after watching the program, I started to feel that I hated all Arabs...quite wrongly I am sure...:sad:

I am wondering...since there seem to be many forum members who are Athiests or feel that there is no God or higher power, and that we are all just animals...do you people feel this is just "Natural Selection" or "Survival of the Fittest" rather than genocide? I believe you are the same people who don't believe we should have stopped Saddam from carrying out similar campaigns on the Kurdish people in northern Iraq - also tied to control of oil wealth btw....

This morning, I was reading an article about using DNA as a defense in some crimes:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24231824/

I am curious to know if these murderous Arabs in the Sudan have this gene they are descibing:
"One case that may prove to be a harbinger took place in the 1990s, after Stephen A. Mobley was convicted of murdering a Domino's Pizza store manager in Georgia. Hoping to avoid the death penalty, his attorneys asked the court to pay for tests to find out whether Mobley, who came from a family with a history of violent behavior, harbored a mutant gene for a brain enzyme known as MAO-A.

Scientists had just pegged a Dutch family's multi-generational history of fistfights and run-ins with the law to that mutant gene. But the judge in Mobley's case found the association too new, and Mobley was executed in 2005.

Since then, however, a number of studies have strengthened the link between MAO-A and violent behavior, and other genes have been added to the mix. This month, scientists in Israel reported that a version of a gene called AVPR1a is associated with "ruthlessness." And although such tests can offer only the probability that a given behavior will arise, they can sway jurors, experts said, because they seem more scientific than a doctor's clinical assessment."


If so, should we screen everyone for this gene and start a eugenics program to eliminate it from the gene pool?

:stirthepot:
 

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[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2249978#msg2249978 date=1208786719]
So I saw the very disturbing documentary titled "The Devil Came on Horseback" about the genocide happening in the Sudan - where the government run by Arabs is engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Dafur region of Sudan, killing and raping all of the "Black" or "non-Arabs" in that area. The Arabs carrying out the killings believe the "blacks" are less human or more primitive humans that should be exterminated from the land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_Came_on_Horseback

Unfortunately, after watching the program, I started to feel that I hated all Arabs...quite wrongly I am sure...:sad:

I am wondering...since there seem to be many forum members who are Athiests or feel that there is no God or higher power, and that we are all just animals...do you people feel this is just "Natural Selection" or "Survival of the Fittest" rather than genocide? I believe you are the same people who don't believe we should have stopped Saddam from carrying out similar campaigns on the Kurdish people in northern Iraq - also tied to control of oil wealth btw....

[/quote]

What they are doing is murdering innocent people. There's nothing about this that says "Natural Selection". This is on the same line as Hitler and the Holocaust: someone seeing a different ethnic group as lower beings and trying to wipe them out.

And just because some of us don't believe in God doesn't mean that we don't have morals and know what's right and what's wrong. No one, regardless of religious beliefs, on this forum is going to think that what's going on in Darfur is okay.
 

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Interesting thing on the gene. But yes, i am an athiest, and regardless what these people believed, it is just wrong to do so. No group is weaker then others as that group believes.

It does seem to be in our nature to kill each other in one way or another.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
^ lol, that's my goal! :p

on a related note...do those of you against the wart in Iraq feel that any american lives should be put at risk to stop this awful genocide? Should our troops be deployed to stop this or is this again "none of our business" as many of you would put it?
 

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[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2249978#msg2249978 date=1208786719]
So I saw the very disturbing documentary titled "The Devil Came on Horseback" about the genocide happening in the Sudan - where the government run by Arabs is engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Dafur region of Sudan, killing and raping all of the "Black" or "non-Arabs" in that area. The Arabs carrying out the killings believe the "blacks" are less human or more primitive humans that should be exterminated from the land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_Came_on_Horseback

Unfortunately, after watching the program, I started to feel that I hated all Arabs...quite wrongly I am sure...:sad:

I am wondering...since there seem to be many forum members who are Athiests or feel that there is no God or higher power, and that we are all just animals...do you people feel this is just "Natural Selection" or "Survival of the Fittest" rather than genocide? I believe you are the same people who don't believe we should have stopped Saddam from carrying out similar campaigns on the Kurdish people in northern Iraq - also tied to control of oil wealth btw....

This morning, I was reading an article about using DNA as a defense in some crimes:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24231824/

I am curious to know if these murderous Arabs in the Sudan have this gene they are descibing:
"One case that may prove to be a harbinger took place in the 1990s, after Stephen A. Mobley was convicted of murdering a Domino's Pizza store manager in Georgia. Hoping to avoid the death penalty, his attorneys asked the court to pay for tests to find out whether Mobley, who came from a family with a history of violent behavior, harbored a mutant gene for a brain enzyme known as MAO-A.

Scientists had just pegged a Dutch family's multi-generational history of fistfights and run-ins with the law to that mutant gene. But the judge in Mobley's case found the association too new, and Mobley was executed in 2005.

Since then, however, a number of studies have strengthened the link between MAO-A and violent behavior, and other genes have been added to the mix. This month, scientists in Israel reported that a version of a gene called AVPR1a is associated with "ruthlessness." And although such tests can offer only the probability that a given behavior will arise, they can sway jurors, experts said, because they seem more scientific than a doctor's clinical assessment."


If so, should we screen everyone for this gene and start a eugenics program to eliminate it from the gene pool?

:stirthepot:

[/quote]


Wow John, where to start. First you could compare this to the mass murders rained down upon the Jews in order to "Cleanse the gene pool". Most people know my stand on God, I believe in a God. But God has nothing to do with this, it is radical religon that is stiring the pots. Most Muslims despite what media would tell you are a peaceful people.

I live around more and we have more here than in any other area of the United States, and if anything we as Americans judge them based on the alleged attacks on America. The sick and heinous crimes being done over in the Sudan are just plain wrong and are done by extremist groups, that is the obvious. What is sick is the lack of international support in that region.


As far as the "mutant gene for a brain enzyme known as MAO-A This Being passed from generation to generation, yes I believe this is possible. But so is depression and hyperactivity and anxiety. These are all traits that make us different. Does it mean you will be a cold blooded killer no, you could end up the highschool bully. None the less everyone should be given a fair chance at life who are we to dictate whom should live and who should die.
With the breakthrough in behavioral medications and right therapy I believe anyone can live a life that THEY deem happy. Society and people should never ever dictate how a person thinks or feels. Actions are diffferent, when a person begins to act on those feelings is when they become a problem.

So pose this question, a family with a history of depression. You have a mother whom kills herself because of it. The son becomes depressed because it runs in the genes, does this mean he will kill himself as well. Most certainly not, he will have a higher chance. But to dictate if he should live or not based on this or based on the fact he could go in a school and shoot 10 kids is absurd.

These idea are sounding more and more like a gentlemen the entire world claimed war on what was his name.


Oh yea.








































HITLER.



:SIGH:
 

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[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2250053#msg2250053 date=1208788568]
^ lol, that's my goal! :p

on a related note...do those of you against the wart in Iraq feel that any american lives should be put at risk to stop this awful genocide? Should our troops be deployed to stop this or is this again "none of our business" as many of you would put it?
[/quote]

I don't think American troops (beyond maybe air and naval assets) should be used to stop this. The Europeans are much more adept at operating in peacekeeping roles in Africa, let them do it.

Unfortunately, this genocide will continue to go on thanks to the structure of power in Africa. Sudanese rebels based out of Chad and other militias will continue to give the Sudanese gov't a cover for its and the janjaweed's atrocities while the world moves on.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I should note that this appears to be based on ethnic differences rather than just religious...Arabs versus non-Arab - not necessarily Muslim versus non-Muslim...

I agree with what you're saying though josh...particulary about the international community doing very little to stop this...
 

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[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2250083#msg2250083 date=1208789593]
I should note that this appears to be based on ethnic differences rather than just religious...Arabs versus non-Arab - not necessarily Muslim versus non-Muslim...

I agree with what you're saying though josh...particulary about the international community doing very little to stop this...
[/quote]

Thank you John, and I wasn't attacking you but the article and giving my 2 cents :)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
[quote author=fatabbot link=topic=109456.msg2250076#msg2250076 date=1208789311]
[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2250053#msg2250053 date=1208788568]
^ lol, that's my goal! :p

on a related note...do those of you against the wart in Iraq feel that any american lives should be put at risk to stop this awful genocide? Should our troops be deployed to stop this or is this again "none of our business" as many of you would put it?
[/quote]

I don't think American troops (beyond maybe air and naval assets) should be used to stop this. The Europeans are much more adept at operating in peacekeeping roles in Africa, let them do it.

Unfortunately, this genocide will continue to go on thanks to the structure of power in Africa. Sudanese rebels based out of Chad and other militias will continue to give the Sudanese gov't a cover for its and the janjaweed's atrocities while the world moves on.
[/quote]

you mean pass the buck? We did sign the UN convention to stop genocide....

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html
 

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[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2250092#msg2250092 date=1208789768]
[quote author=fatabbot link=topic=109456.msg2250076#msg2250076 date=1208789311]
[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2250053#msg2250053 date=1208788568]
^ lol, that's my goal! :p

on a related note...do those of you against the wart in Iraq feel that any american lives should be put at risk to stop this awful genocide? Should our troops be deployed to stop this or is this again "none of our business" as many of you would put it?
[/quote]

I don't think American troops (beyond maybe air and naval assets) should be used to stop this. The Europeans are much more adept at operating in peacekeeping roles in Africa, let them do it.

Unfortunately, this genocide will continue to go on thanks to the structure of power in Africa. Sudanese rebels based out of Chad and other militias will continue to give the Sudanese gov't a cover for its and the janjaweed's atrocities while the world moves on.
[/quote]

you mean pass the buck? We did sign the UN convention to stop genocide....

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html
[/quote]


That was a joke.

The UN is worthless. Support and humanitarian efforts leave much to be desired.
 

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There's many problems that we know of in this world, and many that we don't. Saddam previously did gas the kurds in his country. Genocides and rapid violence has gone on in africa for a long time. How can we pick and choose who to help, and who not. It unfortunatly costs huge sums of money and resources to help the conflict nations. Is it within practicality and our power to help solve all these problems?
 

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[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2250092#msg2250092 date=1208789768]
you mean pass the buck? We did sign the UN convention to stop genocide....
[/quote]

Ok, where are the other signatory powers to that convention?

One of my major complaints about the war in Iraq is that it's reduced our ability to fight in other campaigns. If we weren't bogged down in Afghanistan or Iraq, I'd be more for sending our troops in there. However, we're stretched too thin as it is and any involvement where we're getting into the peacekeeping and protection role in tribal Africa will not be a short term conflict.

I appreciate your concern regarding this situation, let's just not pretend that the American military is the only global resource available to solve this problem.
 

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Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, why are athiests being lumped into a heartless category?

I am wondering...since there seem to be many forum members who are Athiests or feel that there is no God or higher power, and that we are all just animals...do you people feel this is just "Natural Selection" or "Survival of the Fittest" rather than genocide? I believe you are the same people who don't believe we should have stopped Saddam from carrying out similar campaigns on the Kurdish people in northern Iraq - also tied to control of oil wealth btw....
How is murder Natural Selection? Natural selection would be a fault of their own, like using a match to peer into a gas container, not someone murdering someone for being different.

Why can't an Athiest also be a humanitarian? This is very one-sided, John. There have been plenty of wars fought in the name of whomever that particular group believes in. I'd like to see a war fought to actually help someone out, like preventing genocide. I'd support that war any day of the week.

Maybe you can clarify, or maybe you're just trying to start a forum war. In either case, I really hope that isn't what you believe about everyone in a particular group. If so, unfortunately you almost sound like those enforcing the genocide. :( :( :(
 

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Discussion Starter #16
From the Declaration of Independence (The document upon which our nation was founded):

...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...
... But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...


I happen to believe this applies to the world, not just within our borders...

[quote author=fatabbot link=topic=109456.msg2250107#msg2250107 date=1208790202]
[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2250092#msg2250092 date=1208789768]
you mean pass the buck? We did sign the UN convention to stop genocide....
[/quote]

Ok, where are the other signatory powers to that convention?

One of my major complaints about the war in Iraq is that it's reduced our ability to fight in other campaigns. If we weren't bogged down in Afghanistan or Iraq, I'd be more for sending our troops in there. However, we're stretched too thin as it is and any involvement where we're getting into the peacekeeping and protection role in tribal Africa will not be a short term conflict.

I appreciate your concern regarding this situation, let's just not pretend that the American military is the only global resource available to solve this problem.


[/quote]

I totally agree, but if nobody else is going to do something...
 

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[quote author=fatabbot link=topic=109456.msg2250107#msg2250107 date=1208790202]
[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2250092#msg2250092 date=1208789768]
you mean pass the buck? We did sign the UN convention to stop genocide....
[/quote]

Ok, where are the other signatory powers to that convention?

One of my major complaints about the war in Iraq is that it's reduced our ability to fight in other campaigns. If we weren't bogged down in Afghanistan or Iraq, I'd be more for sending our troops in there. However, we're stretched too thin as it is and any involvement where we're getting into the peacekeeping and protection role in tribal Africa will not be a short term conflict.

I appreciate your concern regarding this situation, let's just not pretend that the American military is the only global resource available to solve this problem.
[/quote]


Agreed, this is why the UN needs to step in and do what it was created to do.
 

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[quote author=John_in_the_LBC link=topic=109456.msg2250116#msg2250116 date=1208790424]
I totally agree, but if nobody else is going to do something...
[/quote]

First, we can't afford it. Second, there's little guarantee of success. If we went unilaterally into Sudan, it would make Afghanistan look like Disney World.
 

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I do think we should do something to stop it. As for our current issues, I don't neccessarily think that what was going on was right, but we have certainly caused more problems then what was going on.

There is an expression "Sometimes the cure is worse then the disease". That is a very true statement.

In the case of Dafur, yes I think we should try to step in and do something. That doesn't mean we should act like a heavy and do whatever the heck we please.

Though, In general I do feel a bit like this is Europes issue a lot more then it is ours. They are the ones who ran Africa is their private play ground and resource bin for 100+ years and are the cause directly or not of a lot of issues there, why not have them be the cleanup man, we'll be the assistant?

As for the comment about atheists condoning genocide anything like that...are you actualy retarded?

Since you believe in God does that mean you condoned the Crusades or Hitler's genocide? I mean the man did believe that the Arryan race was choosed by God as the supreme race of man and all others were mogrol savages (especially the Russians and Jews, oh yeah and Americans were at best barbarians).

That is about the dumbest thing I have ever seen you type. At least us Atheists have moral values developed from introspection and from our family as opposed to handed to us by a church...especially when some of those churchs don't have the best intentions in mind (I am not speaking of main stream churches).

How about this http://www.apologeticsindex.org/360-jesus-camp, your Christian right? You must believe all of that stuff. www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

Its not even like the Sudanese who are at the heart of the Genocide are professing to be Atheists.

Sheesh.
-Matt
 
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