[mentalcase]

So I plan on taking delivery on my new 3 this week. I have a nice audio system in my truck that i want to transfer over to my 3. I have a few questions. Right now I'm running Infinity 6.1 components in my front doors that i plan on moving over to the 3. (1) Has any one else installed theses speakers? I know when i installed them in the truck, i had a problem with the magnet being so large is grazed the window. I wonder if ill have the same problem with the 3. I need to get new speakers for my rears since my truck uses crappy 4 inchers. (2) Should i go with components for the rears or just stick with a 3-way? As for bass, I'm driving a 12in Kicker L5 in a ported box with a Kicker 400x1 amp. You would be surprised how hard that thing kicks. Any way my 4-channel amp is also around 400w. Currently I am running a cap since my wiring kit came with it. I never ran the system with out the cap and I'm wondering if i actually need it. (3) So should i keep the cap or lose it? I don't mind installing it, but i wanna keep the stock appearance as much as i can and hiding the cap would be a process.

What do you guys think??

Also, are there spaces for tweeters in the s touring trim? I'm not getting the bose package since im ripping most of the audio out immediately.

 

[geewhizbang]

I have said before in other posts, that you don't need rear door speakers. Check out my "accidental" blind test of this in a recent post. Just disconnect the rear speakers, unless you intend to put a full surround-sound signal source in your car.

Needing them for "fill" is a myth.

I have not seen any posts about infinity speakers not fitting in the Mazda 3 and a lot of people like 'em. Most 6.5 in round speakers DO fit in the front AFAIK.

I don't think there is any huge benefit in 3-way in car audio. Most two-way speakers sound fine, and you have one less crossover point with a 2-way, which is a good thing. You do have a little less doppler distortion of the mids with a 3 way, but it is debatable whether this is worth having another crossover point to get it since the bass driver is so small in a car and the resulting doppler distortion is not a big issue. A 2-way component such as my focals or the equivalent 6.5 Infinity will fit just fine in the stock locations and grilles. The mid in a component 3-way would have to find a non-stock location.

Three way speakers make more sense when the bottom speaker is very large; thus the doppler distortion reduction is pretty significant, which is pretty much NOT the case with car speakers.

The pillars already have (very lousy) tweeters in them in the stock system. My Focal tweeters fit just fine.

 

[operator]

"You" may not want speakers in the rear. "You" may not like the SQ/Staging rears give you. But to continue to say "you don't need rears" as if it's a fact is not right. It's your opinion. And rightfully so. I'm truly glad you like your system the way it's set-up but not everyone is the same. Once again it's been debated before and while some are against rear fill some even if it's a minority are for it. Good rear-fill topics of discussion:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118232
http://www.caraudiocentral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3448
There is no straight up right or wrong when it comes to car audio. Each persons ears are different. Each person may like a different sound.

As for the OP

(2) I'd just go with some simple 6.5's no need for comps in the rear (but that's my opinion.)
(3) You can do without the cap. Unless you want it for cosmetic reasons but as you said you wanna keep a stock appearance.

 

[DrWebster]

I have to agree with Operator. When I'm riding in a friend's truck that only has front speakers, it just feels weird to me not having rear fill. I understand that some people don't like rear fill, and that's fine -- but it's one of those things that you have to try before you decide one way or another.

Back on topic: I have Infinity Reference 5.25 components in my front doors, and there's no problem with the windows, even with the half-foam baffles I installed as water shields. Same with the Reference 6x8's in my rear doors.

 

[El Ropo]

[quote author=Operator link=topic=66481.msg1140313#msg1140313 date=1168349527]
"You" may not want speakers in the rear. "You" may not like the SQ/Staging rears give you. But to continue to say "you don't need rears" as if it's a fact is not right. It's your opinion. And rightfully so. I'm truly glad you like your system the way it's set-up but not everyone is the same. Once again it's been debated before and while some are against rear fill some even if it's a minority are for it. Good rear-fill topics of discussion:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118232
http://www.caraudiocentral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3448
There is no straight up right or wrong when it comes to car audio. Each persons ears are different. Each person may like a different sound.

As for the OP

(2) I'd just go with some simple 6.5's no need for comps in the rear (but that's my opinion.)
(3) You can do without the cap. Unless you want it for cosmetic reasons but as you said you wanna keep a stock appearance.

[/quote]

I have to disagree with you on the rear fill.

If a front stage is properly installed, the doors are properly deadened, substage is designed and installed correctly, and nice, warm sounding amps are used. If all of these things are done, there is absolutely no reason for rear fill in a Mazda3. Unless of course you're running a 5.1 system.

I can see it in a larger vehicle, like a full sized SUV, or a van. The 3 is such a small car that I personally don't see the need for it. Save the money not spent on rear fill, and get better front comps, more deadening, better amps, etc.

 

[geewhizbang]

It is a fact that you don't need rears to produce an absolutely top-notch soundstage. If the front speakers are doing their job properly, you don't need rears.

This statement of fact is based on 20+ years of audio experience, good sonic theory, and is not just a mere opinion. Using rear fill completely defeats the whole point of stereo, and when people are making their first decision on what to buy, it is highly appropriate for me to post this. It gets repetitive only because people ask the same questions over and over.

Perhaps some of you are just into loud, and if so I guess rear fill makes some sense. It is louder all right. But it doesn't sound better if you actually care about a stereo sound stage.

 

[mentalcase]

Thanx for all the replies so quickly. As for the rears, i just remember i had a set of infinity 5x7 3-ways laying around. I used to have them in an old car of mine. So im sure those would be just fine in the rears. What about tweeter placement for the fronts? Are there stock locations or am i going to be drilling the door?

 

[geewhizbang]

There are lousy tweeters already in the door near the mirror.

 

[operator]

[quote author=geewhizbang link=topic=66481.msg1140434#msg1140434 date=1168356502]
It is a fact that you don't need rears to produce an absolutely top-notch soundstage. If the front speakers are doing their job properly, you don't need rears.

This statement of fact is based on 20+ years of audio experience, good sonic theory, and is not just a mere opinion. Using rear fill completely defeats the whole point of stereo, and when people are making their first decision on what to buy, it is highly appropriate for me to post this. It gets repetitive only because people ask the same questions over and over.

Perhaps some of you are just into loud, and if so I guess rear fill makes some sense. It is louder all right. But it doesn't sound better if you actually care about a stereo sound stage.
[/quote]

"It is a fact that you don't need rears to produce an absolutely top-notch soundstage." True but with your comments your making it sound as if having rear fill won't allow you to have a top-notch soundstage which is all I'm debating. Fact is you can sit in car X and I can sit in car X. You can walk away thinking the SQ was great while I might have thought there was room for improvement. "Perhaps some of you are just into loud" I'm sure some are but I'm not one of them. If I wanted loud I'd have gone for 2 12" subs added speakers to the rear deck like Sicmade3 did so on and so forth. I know how to tailor my system to suit my needs. And I know how to keep a good soundstage. My amp gives 150rms to my front doors and 75rms to the rears. My gains are also moved in opposite directions so as not to allow my rears to even get close to matching my fronts. Your "20+ years of audio experience" doesn't make your thoughts on a matter fact (though I do respect your knowledge and opinion on the matter).

 

[geewhizbang]

Rear fill compromises the sound stage. Period. It isn't a matter of opinion. It is scientific fact. If you like rear fill, it is not because it doesn't compromise the sound stage.

If I set up a blind test with appropriate front speakers, it would be clear cut which system images properly.

See my post about my own accidental blind test.

 

[operator]

Once again I respect your opinion. Though until you've sat in my car and expereinced what I'm talking about you won't quite understand.

 

[geewhizbang]

I think I know what you're doing - you want loud. Exra speakers in back are louder == better.

I don't share your goal in that regard. I am after accurate reproduction. I am getting more than adequate volume from the fronts to recreate a vibrant performance with incredible imaging.

I just bought a "best-of" Queen album with a lot of really fun spatial effects (along with some occasionally crunchy guitars and good bass). Speakers in the rear would have completely destroyed most of the fine nuances that I was getting and enjoying today.

These fine nuances are absolutely breathtaking at times when good musicians are taking advantage of them. They are of prime importance to me.

The point I have been trying to make is that it is not a matter of opinion on how stereo works; and more than one point source per channel messes up the stereo image. This is science fact and shouldn't really be in dispute.

It is quite OK if you don't care about my design goals, even though I think you are missing something wonderful in your quest for sheer volume ...

 

[operator]

[quote author=geewhizbang link=topic=66481.msg1142119#msg1142119 date=1168409924]
I think I know what you're doing - you want loud. Exra speakers in back are louder == better.

[/quote]

For some reason your not reading my posts.

[quote author=Operator link=topic=66481.msg1141015#msg1141015 date=1168373231]
"It is a fact that you don't need rears to produce an absolutely top-notch soundstage." True but with your comments your making it sound as if having rear fill won't allow you to have a top-notch soundstage which is all I'm debating. Fact is you can sit in car X and I can sit in car X. You can walk away thinking the SQ was great while I might have thought there was room for improvement. "Perhaps some of you are just into loud" I'm sure some are but I'm not one of them. If I wanted loud I'd have gone for 2 12" subs added speakers to the rear deck like Sicmade3 did so on and so forth. I know how to tailor my system to suit my needs. And I know how to keep a good soundstage. My amp gives 150rms to my front doors and 75rms to the rears. My gains are also moved in opposite directions so as not to allow my rears to even get close to matching my fronts. Your "20+ years of audio experience" doesn't make your thoughts on a matter fact (though I do respect your knowledge and opinion on the matter).
[/quote]

I don't know if your trying to be condesending with your posts or not. I've made it known in many of my previous posts (here and thoughout the elec section) that I'm not going for SPL "loud". If I was I'd have tailored my system that way. And matched my 150rms in the front with 150 rms in the rear along with rear deck speakers and a dual sub set-up. But I haven't and don't plan to.

It is quite OK if you don't care about my design goals, even though I think you are missing something wonderful in your quest for sheer volume ...

once again you'll notice in all my posts in this thread I've said I respected your opinion and your knowledge yet you make the previous posts.......... And no where have I said I was on a quest for sheer volume that once again is you opinion. I'll repeat myself. Until you've been in my car and experienced my system you really can't speak on it's SQ. Even still I and others on this forum thank you for your input on the various subjects you've helped others in.

 

[geewhizbang]

I can't think of any other reason to need rear speakers other than adding loudness. I am basing my statement on proven acoustical science that rear speakers only mess up the sound stage in a stereo system. You have to have two point sources to have stereo. If you have more, you add confusing arrival times for the sounds in the recording, completely smearing up the stereo image. This is utterly provable science.

I would be inclined to let your mistaken opinion slide without any comment if it wasn't so tied up with basic considerations like component choices and budget, but it unfortunately is. If you start making your decisions based on a totally faulty scientific/physical assumption, you are simply not going to get an optimal system for your budget. Doing it your way, people are spending more to get less.

It is rude of you to insist that my accurate understanding of acoustical science is merely my opinion. I suppose that why I have resorted to condescension, and I will apologize for that.

 

[zorminster]

Dear lord... the debate is never ending. Anyway- to the original poster: Do you ever have buddies ride in the rear seats? If you answer yes, even once then i suggest you put rear speakers in. Besides- there are fade controls that you can pull the signal from the rear if you decide you dont want any rear fill. Its really pretty simple. If you've got the speakers already, put them in. Then fade it all front and see if you like how it sounds better without the rear. If you do, hooray for you! When your buddies ride in back, be nice and givem a little sound back there.

 

[Pingwin77]

[quote author=Zorminster link=topic=66481.msg1142545#msg1142545 date=1168447150]
Dear lord... the debate is never ending. Anyway- to the original poster: Do you ever have buddies ride in the rear seats? If you answer yes, even once then i suggest you put rear speakers in. Besides- there are fade controls that you can pull the signal from the rear if you decide you dont want any rear fill. Its really pretty simple. If you've got the speakers already, put them in. Then fade it all front and see if you like how it sounds better without the rear. If you do, hooray for you! When your buddies ride in back, be nice and givem a little sound back there.
[/quote]

+1 :atl:

I have the rear speakers in my car and have no problems at all. I may not have the best SQ that I could, but I don't really care that much about it. I just want to hear the music. And if I have people in the car with me, it is nice that they can hear the music as well. If you only have the sound coming from the front, you have to turn the volume up so that the people in the back can hear it, that can get way too loud for the people in the front.

 

[geewhizbang]

The sound is still going to be better in the back if you don't have rear speakers. It is not like you have to have speakers all along the walls inside a house; why in the heck is this necessary in a car?

Even though the front seats are going to block some of the sound, this would also happen if there were seats in front of you at a concert venue. Your ears are still going to get more consistent arrival times of sound with only point sources in front. The sound is going to be a little less distinct in the rear, but not so much more that it is worth degrading the whole experience for everyone by muddying up the sound in the back with an anomolous point source.

I have said before that this is a custom that started when car speakers were really wimpy. This is no longer the case with good speakers.

 

[Pingwin77]

[quote author=geewhizbang link=topic=66481.msg1142642#msg1142642 date=1168450017]
The sound is still going to be better in the back if you don't have rear speakers. It is not like you have to have speakers all along the walls inside a house; why in the heck is this necessary in a car?

Even though the front seats are going to block some of the sound, this would also happen if there were seats in front of you at a concert venue. Your ears are still going to get more consistent arrival times of sound with only point sources in front. The sound is going to be a little less distinct in the rear, but not so much more that it is worth degrading the whole experience for everyone by muddying up the sound in the back with an anomolous point source.

I have said before that this is a custom that started when car speakers were really wimpy. This is no longer the case with good speakers.
[/quote]

Are you trying to say that the difference in the sound would be caused by the sound of the front speaker getting to your ear before the rear speaker? If that is the case, I think you are nuts. The speed of sound is aprox. 344 m/s (769mph). That's pretty fast. I have a hard time believing that you can tell the difference when the sound is coming out speakers that are about 4 feet apart.

 

[zorminster]

you may not be able to distinguish a time difference but it will actually muddy the sound. It has to do with sound cancellation that results from sound waves running into each other at certain points of their wave-form. equal distance placement is the essence of proper sound-staging from what i've read. And i've got to disagree that it sounds better in the rear w/o speakers back there. The front speakers are not only aimed straight across the car (not aimed towards the rear AT ALL) they are also aimed straight into both my feet and the center console.

 

[geewhizbang]

You can hear astonishingly small difference in arrival times. It is the whole point of stereo audio. It wouldn't work if we couldn't do that.

How do you think you know where a pin drops in a quiet room? It has been scientifically determined that our brain compares the arrival times of the leading edge of the sounds from each ear to determine the location. We are talking about very small variations in arrival times, but our ears are quite capable of detecting this.

In home audio, it really makes a difference how you build multi-way drivers. If you splatter them somewhat randomly so that they fit on a small box front, you usually don't get as good imaging as the same drivers and same crossover with the drivers arranged in a vertical line. That is a difference of only a few inches, and it IS audible. It also helps to keep box corners rounded so that you minimize diffraction effects on edges of the box, which can create secondary point sources at the box corners. I usually don't put grilles on my home speakers for this very reason, and do a 1/2" routered radius all around of the edges of the box.