[Boost Addict]

Just re-visited my Speed dealer and took a second test drive. This time around, I was able to judge more objectively on the characteristics of the car.

Aside from my stubborn prediciton that unlocking gears 1 and 2 via AccessPORT will make this car THAT much more enjoyable to drive, I've noticed two issues I'd like to address.

1. This car is pretty refined for its class... But with plans of adding intake/exhaust etc. Id like my cabin to be as silent as possible. The more insulation you have, the more refined/quiet and comfortable the car feels during day to day driving (with stereo on)... Anyone have any idea how much weight dynamatting an entire car adds? I know someone who quoted me 500 dollars for the job. Is that reasonable for the ENTIRE car (hatch/doors/carpets/everything)??

2. If anyone figures out how to get rid of that body lean this car has, please mention it. Don't get me wrong, the suspension feels PERFECT and even takes turns perfectly. However, it leans heavily on sharp turns... Rather than squatting... Is it matter of thicker sways? Harder shocks?

Thanks in advance for any opinions, arguments, and information!

 

[CosmicBlueMS3]

stiffer springs + bigger sways front and rear will keep it flatter in the corners. However unless you go custom, nobody is offering a bigger rear at the moment. new shocks would be desireable if you got bigger springs to keep everything happy.

 

[Boost Addict]

The springs are nicely balanced/progressive... I would think the issue lies in the shocks? I have no idea...

Any idea how much it would weigh to dynamat the entire car?

 

[mndsm]

I'd imagine a good 100-200lbs at least. I can ask on of my guys that does installs and see what he says. He's done his car a few times (likes to change his stereo about every three weeks) and should have an idea.

 

[jflash]

dont use the asphalt based deadner to save on weight. it would be very easy. its just time consuming. you can try this. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=268-035

 

[solipsism]

Dynamat is really light stuff for the purpose it has. Its weight will be a non-issue. It is a lot of work so $500 seems a little high, but factoring in the cost of labour in the area and the competition and worksmanship it may be alright.

It is a must if your upgrading the stereo. Theres some other brands that perform better around the same price/weight. Average stereo install with a couple amps (mid-range quality), subs, dynamat, box, etc is around 250+ pounds.

60 or so for the mdf or better box. 10-20pounds per sub. Amps are anywhere from 15-60 depening on the quality. They can get pretty heavy. caps and that kind of stuff are a non-issue. Its mainly the box/subs that will add the weight. You could go with fibreglass but for custom it is expensive.

 

[Trubopower]

[quote author=Boost Addict link=topic=70064.msg1220603#msg1220603 date=1172047262]
Just re-visited my Speed dealer and took a second test drive. This time around, I was able to judge more objectively on the characteristics of the car.

Aside from my stubborn prediciton that unlocking gears 1 and 2 via AccessPORT will make this car THAT much more enjoyable to drive, I've noticed two issues I'd like to address.

1. This car is pretty refined for its class... But with plans of adding intake/exhaust etc. Id like my cabin to be as silent as possible. The more insulation you have, the more refined/quiet and comfortable the car feels during day to day driving (with stereo on)... Anyone have any idea how much weight dynamatting an entire car adds? I know someone who quoted me 500 dollars for the job. Is that reasonable for the ENTIRE car (hatch/doors/carpets/everything)??

2. If anyone figures out how to get rid of that body lean this car has, please mention it. Don't get me wrong, the suspension feels PERFECT and even takes turns perfectly. However, it leans heavily on sharp turns... Rather than squatting... Is it matter of thicker sways? Harder shocks?

Thanks in advance for any opinions, arguments, and information!
[/quote]I stripped my celica and did the whole car head to toe, only weighed about 40 lbs. Raam mat rocks. Not that dynamat crap.

I would like to do this as well but I'm not willing to mess with the brand new car and start sticking that stuff everywhere. I might just do the doors to fix the rattles. To give you an idea of what it takes heres a few pics from when I did mine..

 

[TrueRedSpeed]

As for the suspension I think bigger anti-roll bars will fix most of what you want and even if there is no rear available yet, most of the weight is up front so the front bar will be the most help in keeping it flat. Now traditional thinking for FWD cars says that stiffer front bars cause understeer and stiffer rears induce oversteer. However, often times cars don't always follow the traditional lines of thinking and you car gain grip from a stiffer front bar by virtue of it slowing down and reducing weight transfer and helping to more evenly distribute load across the two front wheels. However, there is a limit when too stiff is too stiff and you will just push all day long. Also remember that if you dial in the car for good grip in the dry with stiff bars, you will have little grip in the wet, so keep in mind what kind of compromise you want to strike, here.

Now I know what your talking about, the car rolls in the initial entry to the turn but then takes a nice firm set and holds on. Probably firming up the initial bump in the shocks would help with this too, but there are no parts for this yet and I don't think that you will ever be able to do this for cheep enough to justify on a street car. There are some companies that can modify shocks to make them adjustable if you feel you need to play with this.

Now having said all this, I think that initial roll is not all that important since once the car takes a set in the corner it is firm and solid. Again, this is a relatively heavy car for it's size and sits high (and probably has a high CG). Note how the seats sit on a raised portion of the floor plan and how high the dashboard is mounted, roof line, etc. Plus being a hatch with that profile back, means it's carrying extra weight up top and that it is relatively long and skinny.

So one final cure if you want a "Squatted" feeling is to lower the car, and thus the CG. This should help the weight be distributed more latterly, with less leverage from the lower CG enacting on the suspension, and obviously the required stiffer shock and springs with the key, shorter travel will help. One word of caution when lowering cars is that often when lowered the suspension geometry doesn't work properly any more, or you can move the CG to a worse place than it is to begin with.

And as a final parting word of advise, remember that just because it shows improvement in the skid pad doesn't mean it will show improvement on the slalom, you need to look at the results of both, if you care about making sure what you do is an improvement and is keeping the suspension functioning properly. The slalom will tell you the most info how the car is cornering and handling the changing loads.

 

[HouRman]

Sure you can reduce the roll a little but there's going to be body roll even with thick sway bars and stiffer springs... It's not a miata or S2000 and even those have some degree of body roll.

As for sound damping, dynamat extreme is not crap. It's pretty high quality butylene based damping material that should outperform raamat except when it comes to cost.

Just remember that damping is not position dependent so apply in the center of your problem areas. These tend to be doors, floor, and trunk.

What's funny is adding all this weight for car audio and sound damping should increase body roll... It's sort of two different directions (luxury and handling)

 

[Trubopower]

dynamat is overrated thats all. Not worth the money when theres better products for much less.

 

[Boost Addict]

thanks very much everyone!

Very informative posts guys...

TrueRed... You got exactly what I mean... Its that initial lean that bothers me. But as HouRman mentioned, its no s2000, hence higher CG... Im definitely not interested in lowering a mazdaspeed3. It certainly sits beautifully and the suspension is actually among one of my favorite ever driven... I would in no way want to ruin its dampening or geometry. I just figured if its a matter of somehow getting it to NOT lean, without modding the hell out of the suspension, then Id go for it. Screw it I guess. See Im used to my Mustang which had koni yellows and H&R springs... Turns felt remarkable, the car did not lean/roll etc very roadhugging feeling... However, it was the shittiest suspension overall. From my two test drives in the speed3, the stock setup devours what my mustang was capable of, and oh my god... its soooo much more comfortable too! Its just that lean. haha....

Wow Trubo, thats a LOT of work... I wouldnt be interested in pulling out the dash, thats just too much effort... I figure I can cover most of the firewall without having to pull off the dash. But jeez, nice job... My main focus would be front and rear doors, floor, rear hatch and lid.

And whats the weight guys? about 40-50 lbs for the whole car? Someone said about 200??? Sheesh.. Mndsm, Id appreciate if you could ask your buddy.

I know some of this sounds counter productive, but heres my perspective.. I wont be professionally tracking the car, so the suspension is plenty for DD... Its just a preference thing if I could somehow eliminate that initial lean, I will be that much more content... But I want a daily driver, thats comfortable and almost Lexus-like quiet during general low-rpm coasting (hence the dynamatting). But rest assured it will roar under throttle as I will definitely do full exhaust/intake... Also going this route, I plan to have something like a borla hush muffler, thats quieter than stock, because the downpipe and CAI will roar plenty under load... I want it to be subtle with a roar, and comfortable while invoking a luxury/refined feeling inside the cabin.

I'm a bit particular about sound, while the BOSE isnt my favorite 'color', it will suffice for a while. Eventually I see myself seperately amping Infinity Kappas or even Perfects with a better underseat sub to fill out the lows.

And to those of you hating on dynamat... I honestly dont know better, its the only one I know of... So if there are cheaper and BETTER options... please feel free to educate!

 

[TrueRedSpeed]

[quote author=Boost Addict link=topic=70064.msg1222639#msg1222639 date=1172107177]
thanks very much everyone!

Very informative posts guys...

TrueRed... You got exactly what I mean... Its that initial lean that bothers me. But as HouRman mentioned, its no s2000, hence higher CG... Im definitely not interested in lowering a mazdaspeed3. It certainly sits beautifully and the suspension is actually among one of my favorite ever driven... I would in no way want to ruin its dampening or geometry. I just figured if its a matter of somehow getting it to NOT lean, without modding the hell out of the suspension, then Id go for it. Screw it I guess. See Im used to my Mustang which had koni yellows and H&R springs... Turns felt remarkable, the car did not lean/roll etc very roadhugging feeling... However, it was the shittiest suspension overall. From my two test drives in the speed3, the stock setup devours what my mustang was capable of, and oh my god... its soooo much more comfortable too! Its just that lean. haha....

Wow Trubo, thats a LOT of work... I wouldnt be interested in pulling out the dash, thats just too much effort... I figure I can cover most of the firewall without having to pull off the dash. But jeez, nice job... My main focus would be front and rear doors, floor, rear hatch and lid.

And whats the weight guys? about 40-50 lbs for the whole car? Someone said about 200??? Sheesh.. Mndsm, Id appreciate if you could ask your buddy.

I know some of this sounds counter productive, but heres my perspective.. I wont be professionally tracking the car, so the suspension is plenty for DD... Its just a preference thing if I could somehow eliminate that initial lean, I will be that much more content... But I want a daily driver, thats comfortable and almost Lexus-like quiet during general low-rpm coasting (hence the dynamatting). But rest assured it will roar under throttle as I will definitely do full exhaust/intake... Also going this route, I plan to have something like a borla hush muffler, thats quieter than stock, because the downpipe and CAI will roar plenty under load... I want it to be subtle with a roar, and comfortable while invoking a luxury/refined feeling inside the cabin.

I'm a bit particular about sound, while the BOSE isnt my favorite 'color', it will suffice for a while. Eventually I see myself seperately amping Infinity Kappas or even Perfects with a better underseat sub to fill out the lows.

And to those of you hating on dynamat... I honestly dont know better, its the only one I know of... So if there are cheaper and BETTER options... please feel free to educate!
[/quote]

Try an anti-roll bar kit when it comes out I think it will help about the right amount. As for the stock suspension tuning I wouldn't call it perfect since I notice some weaknesses, but its certainly very good and I doubt I'll ever change it, maybe bars... You could also change the bushings to either polyurethane (which I think may be a little unpleasant on the street) or just good old stiffer rubber. This won't help with the roll but it will take a little of the mushy soppyness out of the setup and the car will take a nice set in the turn sooner. Steering will feel more precise and responsive.

The BOSE sucks, it really does, I was planning on just dealing with it, but it sucks. A good tip is keep the bass set at -1 because any thing above just makes a vibratey distorted drone. Below -1 the sub does nothing. At -1 it seems to actually put out decent sub frequency's that you can hear without causing distortion.
On a positive note I'm somewhat impressed with the ability of the AudioPilot to adjust volume to the right levels (assuming you turned the Mazda volume adjustment off.) We will see if this is true when the CPE, CAI goes in.

Finally, congrats on moving away from antiquated technology and giving up the solid rear axle for an independently sprung car. You know it not only has electronic fuel injection now, but that they can inject direct into the cylinders too! J/K :bananadance:

 

[Boost Addict]

haha yeah... Seriously. The mustangs suspension was something like 30-40 years old in technology... Even though it was an 03.

Havent bought the speed3 yet... but Ive been intimately familiar with WRXs for a while now, and lot of buddies with nice cars, namely E46s, s2ks, Evolutions etc... and to be honest with you, I seriously think the speed3 has a damn-near perfect suspension tuning... But then, Im not sure what youre cross referencing with when you say its far from perfect... I mean, yeah, its not PERFECT, but its really high-end.

The only car that feels more interesting is the E46 M3... where it actually feels sloppy and lazy/heavy on slow turns, but feels like its nimble and stuck to the road at 60-80 mph bends... Nothing gives you confidence like an M3 on a high speed bend... haha... But in general, I still like the speed3s setup more...

I brainstormed bushings... Perhaps upgraded bushings and sstiffer endlinks would lessen the lean and side-to-side flex... and at the same time sway bushings wouldnt compromise straight line ride quality...

Time will tell... Ill read about peoples experiences and experiments and see what yields the right result for me... Still waiting for the 08 impreza before I make my purchase...

 

[TrueRedSpeed]

[quote author=Boost Addict link=topic=70064.msg1222796#msg1222796 date=1172110991]
haha yeah... Seriously. The mustangs suspension was something like 30-40 years old in technology... Even though it was an 03.

Havent bought the speed3 yet... but Ive been intimately familiar with WRXs for a while now, and lot of buddies with nice cars, namely E46s, s2ks, Evolutions etc... and to be honest with you, I seriously think the speed3 has a damn-near perfect suspension tuning... But then, Im not sure what youre cross referencing with when you say its far from perfect... I mean, yeah, its not PERFECT, but its really high-end.

The only car that feels more interesting is the E46 M3... where it actually feels sloppy and lazy/heavy on slow turns, but feels like its nimble and stuck to the road at 60-80 mph bends... Nothing gives you confidence like an M3 on a high speed bend... haha... But in general, I still like the speed3s setup more...

I brainstormed bushings... Perhaps upgraded bushings and sstiffer endlinks would lessen the lean and side-to-side flex... and at the same time sway bushings wouldnt compromise straight line ride quality...

Time will tell... Ill read about peoples experiences and experiments and see what yields the right result for me... Still waiting for the 08 impreza before I make my purchase...
[/quote]


Never said it was "far from perfect" I'm nitpicking here. It's good and it is a very good compromise for handling and comfort. As stated I'm not sure I'll ever change it. However, NIT PICKING, I question some of the shock valving particularly as we both felt, the perhaps a little too soft slow speed bump setting. I also feel the cars gets floatly over undulations especially at higher speed, 60 mph plus. Again this suggests too soft a setting for the mid piston speeds. Those are my complains from almost 4 moths of ownership, but again let me stress that I'm nit picking. Overall its a good setup and I'm happy with it. Could it be a little better? Yes. Does it need to be changed? No.

 

[Boost Addict]

haha good clarification...

I dont know... I wonder if they had tuned it to eliminate that initial lean, maybe it wouldnt be so good all around anymore... perhaps this is the compromise we pay for. I'm with you on the nit-picking... I completely agree that its among one of the best suspension systems when it comes to its balance between sport/comfort... Eitherway its nice to hear a 4 month old view rather than my 2 test-drives experience... The highest I took it was around 90ish... the car felt extremely stable up there. Dare I say more stable than at lower speeds it seemed... But then again Im talking the 5 freeway in SoCal, it was a smooth road, nothing that would really send it floating...

 

[TrueRedSpeed]

If they stiffened up the as mentioned settings, it would certainly make the suspension, how to say this... stiffer, or quicker acting. That is not to say harsh or rock hard. Hard to tell exactly how much of the comfort would go away, as much of that is also controlled by the quality and design of the shock valving. That is why people are willing to pay for Bilsteins. As far as feeling this you need that undulation wavy pavement, rather than choppy (you can feel it on choppy, but there is so much else going on with choppy and nothing works well on it so who cares.) It also help to be in a some sort of corner, even a gentle one where the the suspension has a little load on it. It also seems to be more pronounced if your accelerating too.

However, this is probably happening because of the trade off they made (that doesn't get them off the hook with my, because they might have been able to work on it further) but as we know they did a fine job as it is.

I'd also mention to car's designer's and engineer's credit, that in almost all certainly one of the reasons this set up does work so will is the bracing they used throughout the car. These make a big difference and allows the suspension to be felt and used, rather then the twisting of the body to get in the way.

 

[Boost Addict]

true... chassis stiffening goes a long way in providing a more efficient/usable suspension setup

 

[jflash]

my last car was an 06 3 hatch with prokit springs. the first thing i noticed about the speed was how much stiffer it was. you really notice it when pulling into drivways.

 

[Boost Addict]

so i guess their "60% stiffer" claim is good, yeah?

 

[jflash]

yep. i can wait to see the difference it has on the track. april 28th