[quote author=kwsmithphoto link=topic=135975.msg3112602#msg3112602 date=1241857049]
That's a lot of self contradiction! Do you have a real problem or don't you? You bought shitty dampers and are complaining about the ride quality. Then you said it wasn't a problem. Is it or isn't it? It would be for me.
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Man we've taken this nice thread way off track eh?
Contradiction? No sir. This is not a black and white subject - every suspension setup is a compromise.
I was not complaining of the dampers - in fact I am quite impressed with that aspect of the BC's. The dampers are well matched to the spring - and BC dyno tests each shock to match within 5% of each other. That is quite a nice feature that most coilover/shock companies do not offer. A lot of people that have not used the BC assume they are shitty, but my experience with them does not play this out. As a reference point - the OEM MS3 dampers are far inferior to the BC coilover dampers.
The complaint is travel in the front. There is not enough travel for roads with big bumps. This is the only compromise I've discovered with the BC's. I've had friends ride with me were quite impressed with the ride on the street under most conditions - they didn't know what kind of coilovers I had, and they have quite a lot of experience modifying suspensions. The travel issue may be improved by using shorter bumpstops as the ones provided are a bit large. I'm not sure of this. There may be no solution to it
There is no perfect suspension for every job, if I didn't have a complaint about my suspension then I'm not trying hard enough.
[quote author=kwsmithphoto]
As I've said 5000 times or so, the MS3 springs and FSD's are plenty firm enough for
me. My first track day will be in a couple of weeks, and I only do 1-2 events a year. So that's what, .001% of my driving? The other 99.99% of my driving is either in urban traffic on bad roads, highway road trips on mixed surfaces, or canyon runs at 8/10ths on mixed surfaces. The FSD/OEM combo is up to the task. The body control is an order of magnitude better than stock, roll stiffness is good (at least on the stock tires), and I wouldn't want to go any firmer because I'm too mature to put up with rough and tumble suspension tuning all the time. I also like my tires to stay planted on rough surfaces, which the FSD's excel at. Poorly designed dampers just can't deal with that, which is important to me because the quality of road work in my part of the world leaves much to be desired.
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It's good that works for you. I was relatively satisfied with the OEM suspension until the shocks went south. I used the car completely stock for a full 320 minutes of all-out track time (4 track days - 4 20 minute sessions per day). I got a very good feel for the car in OEM state and it is decent but ultimately lacking in control and stability. It's quite good for OEM, but once you spend some time at track pace it becomes clear. I simply drove around the stock suspension inadequacies, and still had a grin on my face. Quality shocks alone would have been a big help, FSD's may be perfect. In my experience however I also found that more spring rate is called for IF you want to put track time at a higher priority. Obviously we have different priorities.
[quote author=kwsmithphoto]
On a road car suspension design, compliance and travel are your friends, it's what they're designed for. Super stiff setups
feel more responsive, which a very good driver can exploit to eek out a little more speed in certain situations, or a bad driver can use to cover up sloppy driving. Search and study what Jackie Stewart has said about how to drive smoothly - his experience might be dated but the basics still apply. Properly driven, you can go very fast with a relatively soft setup.
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Stiff setups will exploit sloppy driving and punt the driver right off the track. I've seen this happen many times.
You can go very fast with ANY setup, properly driven. Relatively soft is relative to perspective. The BC's ARE a relatively soft setup.
I have watched Jackie Stewart, he is if course one of the masters. You can go a long way with increasing the spring/sway of the MS3 and still fall into the soft category. From my perspective.
As far as the BC's the spring rate is only slightly stiffer. The dampers work quite well. The rough and tumble as you put it, is not an issue if you get the dampers adjusted well. If you drive over 2x4's constantly, the BC's suck in that regard. There is one spot in my 17 mile commute where I hit a sharp bump that highlights the weakness in the BC's. It is only the front that is the issue. Thankfully 2x4's in the road are the exception where I live, and on the tracks I drive they do not exist.
Harris Hill Road track in San Marcos has some bumpy high speed turns...they are quite fun. With my BC setup on near full stiff (and a hotchkis rear bar) I can flat-foot it through these places and let the tires do their work. The bumps are not large enough to cause any issues with the front BC's. If the bumps were that big I think the track would get no business!
I'm the first to admit I have a lot to learn, but I have also gained a good amount of experience over the years that I have been modifying and tracking cars. I'm curious - will this be your first time on track in your life, or your first time with the MS3?
[quote author=kwsmithphoto]
You mentioned sway bars. Personally, I think Mazdaspeed got the bars and spring rates just about right for road use (can't comment on track use yet). Yes it will plow at low speeds if you let it...so don't let it! At medium and high speeds, I can drive the slip angle of the stock tires just fine in a neutral drift, or even induce some oversteer if I need to tighten my line and scrub a little speed because I mis-read the road. Fun and safe.
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Mazdaspeed did fine with the car as a road car. You will find that as you push it on the track it is very easy to drive hard, and even make big mistakes it will absorb the mistakes and make you look like a hero in the novice and intermediate ranks of DE's.
For my use of the car I disagree that the spring rates and sway bars are perfect. The setup allows too much roll, which in turn expects too much from the tires and ultimately leaves you with less grip than you should have.
[quote author=kwsmithphoto]
Here's another paradox to absorb: even a nose heavy, FWD car is often faster with an uprated front sway bar only. Why? Because that's where most of the mass is. When you increase roll stiffness only in the front, you increase traction in the rear suspension because the inside rear wheel isn't going light on you. If you go the common route, add a stiffer bar to the rear, all you've accomplished is a reduction of overall traction because the car is light back there. Tough concept to wrap your head around, I know, but there are sound physics behind it.
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There are two schools of thought for hardcore autocrossers (I've been down that road too) in FWD cars. Some folks put on a giant front bar, and others go with a giant rear bar. As has been proven by their competitive times on a national SCCA level, both configurations are effective. As is upgrading both.
The reason a big front bar works is because the outside tire doing all the work in a turn does not have as much weight rolled on to it.
Rear bars help rotation. It's not complicated. Doglegging around some very tight turns does not necessarily hurt the handling. In autocross you need rotation as well as grip.
In the case of the available options for the MS3 - the cobb sways and the hotchkis sways - neither are "giant" bars. They are a moderate upgrade in keeping with a street car that is occasionally tracked. They improve overall grip by reducing body roll. IMO they are the sweet spot for improving grip by reducing roll, without adding too much to make the car skip over bumps in a turn.
If I could go back I would like to try the OEM springs with FSD shocks and the hotchkis bars. I think the MS3 would be a very good street car and occasional track car with that setup. That setup would not be ideal for the track though I expect it would be quite good. But it would not be an upgrade from what I have now, IMO so I won't spend the cash for it.
[quote author=kwsmithphoto]
They key is learning how to drive it that way. It isn't as much fun as a car that turns in and rotates in slow speed corners like a Kart, and the car will feel very strange until you get the hang of it. It's how my last car was setup. It took me a while to get used to it, but once I did, I got a lot faster. It stuck like glue if I drove it right, plowed like a, uh, plow if I didn't, and was super duper stable.
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Definitely, you have to drive around the idiosyncrasies of any car. Understeer is more stable, and safer. That is why most manufacturers tune the suspension that way - for the general safety of the customers. It is not necessarily the fastest setup for the car however.
Most FWD cars behave much the same way, and have to be driven in a similar way to get the most out of them. You can tweak the setup a bit but you can't change the weight distribution much, and you can't change the fact that we're putting the power through the same tires that are expected to handle the majority of the turning duties, and the braking duties. The front tires on my car get absolutely tortured at the track. The back tires get an easy ride by comparison.
I do prefer a mostly neutral with a tiny hint of understeer setup for that reason - it is safer. With the BC's and the hotchkis, that is exactly what I have - but with higher levels of grip because of less body roll.
[quote author=kwsmithphoto]
One last thought, you mentioned something about hitting the bump stops with your BC setup. In the front at least, they use their own bump stops as all coilover's do. The rears I can't comment on because they aren't coilovers. But if you're bashing their bumps stops, you need either raise the car, dial in a bit more compression damping, or both. Which may have adverse affects because they are...well, as you put it...you get what you pay for. There's better stuff out there, as you noted yourself.
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My car is not slammed - that is not ideal for handling geometry. My compression settings for the street are quite soft. Even so, the design of the BC setup is such that if you correctly set the pretension, the travel will be the same no matter what height you have them set to. It's a good design - except not enough travel. No question about it this is the ugly truth of the BC's. So far in every other light they are very good for the money.
The rears are a non issue, they work well.
Anyway - I really did not intend to become a BC apologist. The bottom line is that they are good - not great. They are an improvement to the stock suspension with the one exception that I have mentioned.
I would advise those that bash them but have not tried them - don't speak of things you do not know of.
There are plenty of sports cars, EVO's, STI's, Z's, vette's,S2k's, etc. that can attest to the fact my car works quite well. Then again it's all about the nut behind the wheel
There are plenty of slower cars with better drivers that have showed me their tails. I have a lot to learn about driving yet, but then most of us do.
The way my suspension is now, what I need is more negative camber in the front. Currently there is no adjustment for that, and it's -0.9 on the left, and -1.3 on the right. That is next up on my list to even this out and get -2.0 on both sides, a conservative setting for a FWD car, a good compromise for aggressive street and improved track. Time for camber plates.
This thread is supposed to be about FSD's and I am sorry for dragging it into a BC vs. the world thread :lol:
Let's hear more about your FSD experiences as I am interested to know for future reference.