[Ride My Bike]

Hi all, it might be too early to ask about this, but I'm wondering if anyone knows about the camber curve in the front?

Some MacPherson strut cars are designed in such a way that they "gain" camber through the suspension travel, meaning you have to run a ton of negative camber and/or very stiff spring rates in the front or your camber will increase (bad) under hard corner loads. I

t's something that us RSX Type S kids have to deal with on our cars... :?...it's especially a factor if you lower the car too much. I'm kinda interested in the MS3 and figure Mazda normally does suspension very well, but I was a little disappointed to see that it doesn't have double wishbones (which usually have a great camber curve) in front. From here it appears they just added stiffer springs and bars and relocated the tie rod link to stiffen things up well, reduce ride height and eliminate bump steer. Which I've already done on my car as well.

I'm sure the MS3 handles great out of the box, but I'm specifically interested in this aspect in terms of track performance potential.

 

[dutchie3]

nobody really will know until they put an aftermarket kit on it. this really only comes into play when you lower a car more than 2" or so...which only those who are into serious racing or show will do. even then you can correct with camber plate.
<8 degree neg camber for example can be ok for tracking depending on the wheelbase, and weight of car. but not much fun on bumpy roads and you will get excessive wear on tires.

 

[Focused]

I don't have links off the top of my head unfortunately, but try a little search through Focaljet.com in Suspension and Road/Rally/Autox forums, as there's been significant, valuable discussion pertaining to such info, including camber, adjustments, effects. The MS3 and Focus will react similarly to the same changes.

 

[Judd]

Bit of a thread jack, but how many cars actually come with a double wishbone setup? The only one I can think of that would be in the same class as the MS3 would be the integra type R. Do I just have bad memory, or is it actually that rare?

 

[Focused]

Other than the '00 body style Civics (EK?), I can't think of any other double-wishbone sport compact auto either.

 

[bumoftheday]

Not really the same class, but the MS6 and Mazda 6 have a front double wishbone setup

 

[small town king]

turkeys have wishbones?

 

[Ride My Bike]

There isn't much, if anything, in the same class with double wishbones. I thought Suby's did but I was mistaken.

And BTW camber kits/camber plates can fix static and initial camber but the /camber curve/ has to do with the strut geometry and how it changes through roll and compression...camber bolts and plates alone don't fix it, or so I hear.

I'll look forward to seeing where the MS3 comes out in this regard.

 

[Focused]

[quote author=dutchie3 link=topic=66276.msg1138002#msg1138002 date=1168223501]
nobody really will know until they put an aftermarket kit on it. this really only comes into play when you lower a car more than 2" or so...which only those who are into serious racing or show will do. even then you can correct with camber plate.
<8 degree neg camber for example can be ok for tracking depending on the wheelbase, and weight of car. but not much fun on bumpy roads and you will get excessive wear on tires.
[/quote]

Excessive wear is not necessarily inherent. Particularly regarding the MS3 suspension design, toe plays a major role; even with a 2" drop and significant increase in camber, the wear can be even and moderate (not optimal, but not less than it has to be) if toe is aligned correctly. Now, that's assuming the camber is being taken advantage of, or IOW, the car's being driven "spiritedly". If all tires are seeing is normal daily driving, wear will occur more rapidly.

 

[dutchie3]

[quote author=Focused link=topic=66276.msg1138239#msg1138239 date=1168231875]
Other than the '00 body style Civics (EK?), I can't think of any other double-wishbone sport compact auto either.
[/quote]

I believe a porsche or two dont even come with them...so, not to worry.

 

[Focused]

[quote author=dutchie3 link=topic=66276.msg1139671#msg1139671 date=1168307781]
[quote author=Focused link=topic=66276.msg1138239#msg1138239 date=1168231875]
Other than the '00 body style Civics (EK?), I can't think of any other double-wishbone sport compact auto either.
[/quote]

I believe a porsche or two dont even come with them...so, not to worry.
[/quote]

Oh, nah, I'm not. Our setup is very capable 8)

 

[Focused]

Hey guys, posted the OPs entire post, asking for a detailed response from the trusted suspension gurus over on FJ.com.

There's good info. Though, as I've mentioned before, most responses will be referring to the Focus specifically, but disregard that, as the suspension systems are virtually identical and operate/behave in the same manner.

http://forums.focaljet.com/suspension/537935-camber-curve.html

 

[Focused]

BUMP

Ride My Bike, did ya find it informative at all? I did. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[typer_801]

First of all, you can measure you camber curve. You could in theory, just remove the spring from the shock assembly, reinstall the strut, attach the wheel (of cource keeping a floor jack under the car). Then measure camber through wheel compression by lowering the jack. It would be easiest to do with a camber gauge on the wheel, measuring the car at various ride heights. Probably a Saturday afternoon project, for one so inclined.

Other characteristics to look for. Lots of castor. Lots of caster help add camber while turning, that's when you need it most and is an indicator of a better camber curve. Tie-rod attachment point. You'll want a tie rod attachment to the knuckle at roughly the same height as the lower control arm. If this is the case, the car will experience minimal bump steer. Car's like the RSX mentioned previously have the tie rod attachment higher on the strut assembly and it's very vulnerable to bump steer. You also have to need to see if you can determine how much the roll center is affected by lowering. Some car's roll centers are affected more than others by lowering. So in some cases, you're actually better off lowering the car very little despite the improvements in cg, because the negative suspension geometry comprimises that come along with it.

Not sure on the MS3, but there have to be some racers who know. I'd hit the road racing forums. I'm pretty sure the 3 is a good Showroom Stock C car, if so the racing crowd will have this knowledge is spaids!!!