Just got my MazdaSpeed CAI!

Re: MAF after a curve on an incorrect diameter pipe: a HUGE no-no!

[quote author=stretch link=topic=70133.msg1251416#msg1251416 date=1173183447]
Yikes! Somebody measure their fuel trims with this intake.

Mark my words: this intake is a mis-engineered piece of crap. You might wonder why I'm bitter, and it's because Mazda puts their name on these ho-hum aftermarket parts. It's a disgrace. The Mazdaspeed intake for the Mazda6 was just a rebadged AEM intake that Mazda marked up for more money, and it too threw a CEL.

Those who do run ECU tuners may find their engine detonating or worse, since the MAF, which the ECU relies on for fuel metering, won't know what the hell it's reporting....

However, I'd strongly recommend owners instead get an intake like Custom Performance Engineering's, since it keeps your MAF accurate while still alleviating the pressure drop, so it'll be balls-on accurate with piggybacks and ECU reflashes down the road. It's the proper way to tune, with no parts stepping on one another's heels. But perhaps most importantly, you won't have the inconsistent rise of MAF voltage- the CPE intake keeps this sensor linear and reliable. If you don't want CPE's intake, given the current market options, stay stock and see if another decent design hits the market.
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So that's a hardcore post - lots of info.
Evidence - NONE!
Let me ask you this.
Did CPE have a sensor in event cranny/bolt/corner of their car ?
Did CPE have detailed/ECU data to look over after a run ?
How many hours/$$$ did CPE spend on developing that intake ?
how many hours did CPE spend on testing that intake in variable conditions. Pushing the car - even breaking it. ?
This car is "NEW". The ECU on this car is way smarter....no one really knows what its doing. Not even COBB. (sure, they're trying to figure it out) You can reverse engineer only to a certain extent.

What if I told you it measures the octane levels in your gas to control boost ?. Oh look, one new thing to add to your equation.
So now, do you have all these little details/inputs upon which the ECU processes ? NO

one final question: the CPE intake is 3" and the Mazdaspeed instake is 2.5"
Surely Mazda could have release a 3" intake, but they had data/evidence/test results...to say otherwise. Data that proved that maybe a 3" intake will cause problems.

[quote author=sergio link=topic=70133.msg1251632#msg1251632 date=1173195119]I dunno, but I'm with Mazda on this one, they made the car. How many engineers do they have working on designing the engine? Probably a whole floor of them. Also, what kind of supercomputers do you think Mazda has? Just something to think about.[/quote]
Yes, let's get one thing clear: the only Mazda-designed intake for this car is the stock intake. MS3 Hot Hatch just said: the Mazdaspeed intake is an AEM intake.

[quote author=dread link=topic=70133.msg1251555#msg1251555 date=1173192240]
stretch, no offense but do you even own a mazdaspeed 3[/quote]
No, but what does that have to do with anything? What I drive doesn't make me right or wrong. I currently drive an STI, for what it's worth. I had a Mazda6 before that and am still pretty close to that community.

and have you seen a mazdaspeed intake.

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Yes.

You seem to like trashing products that are sold on this website with no justification.

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Did I not provide enough justification? It's funny- you consider it trashing the product whereas I consider it explaining the product. Some people here clearly want an intake that leans out the air/fuel ratio, and that's great for them. People should know what they're getting into, though.

I understand the skepticism since I'm not voicing a popular opinion, so if you don't believe me, then please- just ignore me! I'm trying not to explain what my opinions are so much as why I have them. You can make your own (different) conclusions if you wish.

Of course the car will need to be tuned differently if it has a CAI, that is a given.

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Only if it is throwing off the MAF. When the engine's sensors are operating properly, then the ECU can make informed decisions. It is flexible, but only when it has reliable data!

How do you know the tube is incorrectly sized and that the MAF is in a bad location.

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Was I not clear enough? I wish Cobb still had their article about intake design online- it was fantastic, and explained some of these principles much better than I ever could. Unfortunately, they lost it with their site's redesign.

[quote author=NoobInACan link=topic=70133.msg1251565#msg1251565 date=1173192549]
So that's a hardcore post - lots of info.
Evidence - NONE![/quote]
Well, if you'd just measure your fuel trims, we'd have more evidence! I talked with CPE and know they did the research. Being the great group of guys they are, they even shared some of the raw data with me, and that's the evidence I'm sure you'd like to see. I'll leave it to them if they want to post it (it's their property), but I assure you it's real. Doesn't anyone own a scan tool?

I'm going to have to divert the rest of your questions to CPE. Perhaps you should call them. They're a great group of guys and I'm sure they'll answer your questions. Perhaps you should try calling Mazdaspeed, too?

[quote author=RonTonkinMazda]stretch does nothing but bash MS and rave about CPE on every message board he does not own a MS3 and has i bet never seen a MS part before, its a shame he spends so much time bashing a company and offers nothing but long winded statements as "proof" i have sold 87 MS Intakes has anyone seen a post from a owner saying this thing sucks i wish i would of got a CPE?[/quote]
For what it's worth, there are a lot of companies that I rave about- CPE, Cobb, APS, Whiteline, Koni, Bilstein, Ohlins, etc. These are all companies that make great products. It's not blind bias but a mix of experience and sense. Am I not supporting my hypothesis for you to make your own conclusions with? I'd love to have a meaningful discussion, but if you want to make it personal, go ahead. You're attacking me rather than providing counterpoints to the arguement I proposed!

Besides, if people are happy with their fuel trims being off, then why do you care what I say? I'm merely here explaining what happens and why. If your customers are fine with the results, then that's great. The customer should at least they know the pros and cons prior to the purchase.

stretch when I said the ecu would need to be tuned differently I was saying you shouldn't just plug in a piggyback with a basemap. The stock ecu compensates for a cai with no problem but if you are leaning out the mixtures with an ecu tune you need to consider the cai is present. Considering the extremely large number of ms3 owners that have a ms intake I would assume that most companies will make a map available for it. I happen to think cpe makes great products and would not have a problem buying from them, in fact I think their intake looks nicer than the ms intake and in all likelyhood could produce better gains, but it doesn't come with a waranty and could void the waranty on my car. So instead of getting a cpe that I would have to remove every time I went to the dealer I will go with the ms. I just don't understand why you are bashing mazdaspeed especially when you don't have a clue what you are talking about. You seem to base your opinions off of same statement cobb or cpe made, which doesn't make you an expert on intake design. An intake is supposed to produce power and lean out the mixture a little. CPE even said their cai leans out the mixture. Why are you trashing are sponsers products when you have no experience with them and are clearly not going to buy from them. That's not cool. If you had some real knowledge and informative data then your comments may be interesting, but everything you say comes out of your ass.

[quote author=brecker link=topic=70133.msg1251696#msg1251696 date=1173197613]
Wouldn't the bend be exactly where it needs to be to "channel" the air across the MAF sensor. From just looking at the design, it seems to be in the right location?? Now if it was directly opposite on the bottom of the tube - I could see some apparant flaws in the design. Maybe a chance that the CP-E is over-engineered??[/quote]
Ah, you're onto something- but keep in mind we don't want to direct air up into the MAF unless this happens on the stock airbox, too. Still, I think that may be a "trick" AEM tries to use to get the MAF voltages back to near-stock. They can also vary the depth of the MAF sensor in the tube. However, ultimately, these solutions tend to optimize the MAF only for a very specific air velocity through the tube. The air after a bend is turbulent, and the amount or turbulence (and density of the air on the outside of the bend) varies according to air velocity. Raising the MAF depth will increase its perceived air flow (especially at high air velocities) since the MAF assumes it is mounted on a straight pipe with smooth air flow. Hopefully I'm explaing this well. Anyway, since the effect of this varies according to flow (and not linearly), the ECU has trouble correcting the fuel trims.

[quote author=MS3Sleeper link=topic=70133.msg1251690#msg1251690 date=1173197431]I'd be really surprised if the Mazdaspeed and AEM guys in some combination didn't do some simple flow-bench work to baseline the stock intake MAF and replicate the flow response in the CAI. Finding the sweet spot empirically wouldn’t be rocket science. [/quote]
As I said to brecker, I think AEM does attempt to keep the MAF accurate. They just can't (correction: haven't in the past) do it over the entire RPM range- at least not cost-effectively. I'm not sure why AEM/Mazdaspeed doesn't strive for greater accuracy, honestly, since CPE has shown it can be done. My guess is that it is a business decision, not an engineering one.

Take this only as anecdotal evidence, but the AEM intake I have for my STI (came with the car) drove the car lean, threw a CEL, and even caused the car to overboost. Heck, for the Mazda6, AEM came on the message boards and said very deliberately, "Our intake is properly engineered and will not set CEL's." This was a jab at Injen who's intake also (very popularly) set CEL's (but also made the most power from running very lean). However, AEM put the MAF after a bend, and while the fuel trims read zero at idle, they went off at anything other than idle. Eventually the intake threw a CEL, usually from stop-and-go traffic where the engine altered between idling and open-loop driving frequently. Injen actually responded to AEM's claims by redesigning their own intake, but eventually threw in the towel, stating that they could not make an intake that would not throw a CEL. Injen now sells their original design with a CEL warning.

I don't mean to say this will happen again on the Mazdaspeed3, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out, either. Like I said, that's just anecdotal evidence.

A heated RTD, semiconductor or thermocouple MAF is maybe a 10% accuracy transducer. The fuel trims are only active when closed-loop, and the trim A/F feedback is from exhaust O2, not the MAF. The MAF is typically used just for dynamics in open loop.

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Sort of. The MAF is always what is used to calculate how much fuel gets injected, but its accuracy is only verified (by the first narrowband O2 sensor) in open loop. That absence of fuel trims at wide-open throttle has historically been why these lean-run intakes can show great gains, but some modern cars actually try to predict fuel trims into the closed-loop operation (based on what they find in open loop). I'm not sure if the MS3 does this.

Now, what I can say without worries is that if someones engine blows due to the mixture being to lean, you better believe that owner will be happier with having the MS intake on and not the CPE. Sure, CPE warranties their product for life but they sure as hell are not going to replace my engine if it blows due to their intake.

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But which intake has the lesser chance of blowing up an engine in the first place?! I don't think either intake would destroy an otherwise stock car, but once the modifications start adding up (and the warranty ceases to matter anyway), I think I know which intake would be more reliable to tune on.

Re: Just got my MazdaSpeed CAI! - UPDATE #3 Dealer Dented my NEW MS3 CAI

UPDATE #3 Dealer Dented my NEW MS3 CAI
OK, here's an update:
Called the dealer this morning, spoke with service manager.
Here's the conversation:
Me: You are not gonna believe what's up with my car now.
Dealer: I know what you are gonna say, your CAI has a dent in it.
My tech noticed that after he had it installed, he called me over to verify it.
Me: Is this the same tech that cross-threaded my bolt?
Dealer:No, this is my best tech, hand-picked by me.
Me: I had the CAI in my hands after I unpacked it and was admiring it and it was definitely not dented.
Dealer:Well my tech did not do it, I trust him at his word.
Me: If the CAI was dented when you started on it, why didn't I get a call and why didn't you inform me of this yesterday when I picked up the car?
Dealer: Tech didn't see it until the job was finished.
Me: Well I think he dropped a wrench on it or something and didn't want to accept responsibility for it.
Dealer: (Gets mad now - raises voice) What will it take to make you happy?
Me: I want the piece that is dented replaced.
Dealer: That will cost me over $300
Me: No the dealer cost is $240, and I will install the new part myself.
Dealer: Do you know the part number ?
Me: I look up the part number and give it to him.
Dealer: I will call you when the part comes in.
Me: OK fine, I will be looking forward to your call.

End of conversation. I won't be letting those clowns touch any of my cars again. Sad thing is they have done everything fine for over 2 years. There best tech left a few months ago and so did some of the other cool people they had in their service dept. I bet they were just hoping I won't even notice the dent - what a bunch of losers.