[Funky]

So.. What is the difference between grounding everything under your hood, and installing a condenser?
I understand the $$$ part of the deal, but how about the results?
Are the two mods even related to each other? is grounding just a cheaper alternative?

Funky

 

[crazyfast]

installing a condenser smooths out all of the electric current in the car so that it increases the horse power through more consistent electricity. some condensers talk about "electric noise", but i dont know much about that. most condensors come with places where you can attach ground wires so you can get both benefits at the same time.

installing a condensor will give dyno proven results (if u buy from a reputable brand) and i dont know if any one has ever tested the benefits of a ground wire kit. i can only imagine it wouldnt be more than 1 hp. the condensor, on the other hand, can make up to 10 hp at certain points.

hope that helps.

 

[biped]

that was the most ricer explanation for a condensor i've ever heard lol.

 

[The Spaz]

[quote author=biped link=topic=71960.msg1266922#msg1266922 date=1173885732]
that was the most ricer explanation for a condensor i've ever heard lol.
[/quote]

Let's hear yours...

 

[crazyfast]

yea please. i did what i can to explain off of the things that i know. if its not good enough, please do better... seriously. i want to know the right way to explain it so i can understand better for myself

 

[everett-m3s]

[quote author=biped link=topic=71960.msg1266922#msg1266922 date=1173885732]
that was the most ricer explanation for a condensor i've ever heard lol.
[/quote]

What good is it to just bash what someone says, and not add anything to it?

 

[biped]

[quote author=crazyfast link=topic=71960.msg1266908#msg1266908 date=1173885422]
installing a condenser will smooth out some of the electric current in the car. some condensers talk about "electric noise", which is essentially power surging or voltage spikes. this is what the condenser is trying to smooth. most condensers come with a connection where you can attach ground wires for obvious reasons.

i dont know if any one has ever tested the benefits of a ground wire kit, though it is safe to say that with/without a condenser the result is going to be basically the same. i can only imagine it wouldn't be more than 0hp at the wheels. the buddy club condenser can make up to 10hp at a particular rpm level (around 5k rpm)... on at least one car here with many other modifications. there is a dyno. find it.
[/quote]

i very much doubt anyone here can physically tell the difference between a ground wire kit and a kit utilizing a condenser. i know i couldn't, my butt just isn't that sensitive. it is, at very best, under-hood bling just like most things claiming minimal power increases. it probably helps the electrical system a mild amount, but no more than a full ground kit without a condenser.

in short, the same result is probably going to be had no matter what route you take. very similar to grounding your throttle body if you're in to that sort of thing.

and by the way, i didn't HAVE to give any sort of answer to this post, sarcastic or not. all of this information is available here and around the web. took me all of five minutes to google some shit and then remove all the references to increasing horsepower (which might not even be the same on every car). it isn't up to me to provide you with these simple answers.

 

[rubyred3]

the condenser adds capacitance to the electrical system, making ground more stable, so it is different than just trying to equilibrate ground levels at different points of the car. You could probably just use a big stereo cap in line of your ground cable and it would do the same things, but I'm just guessing (I'm a mechanical engineer, not electrical. . .)

and the reason biped answered the way he did is he is correct, that WAS a ricer explaination. However, when you forced him to come up with his own, IT was incorrect too (more even grounding and adding capacitance to an electrical system are very different things). He did the right thing, in that he only responded to what he knew, which was that the initial explaination was pretty BS. Saying someone is wrong has value, not necessarily as much as saying what IS right, but it still has value.

The reality of it is, that changes to the electrical system will rarely make a big benefit as far as output of the engine, our car happens to be unique, I've rarely seen a car actually gain hp from electrical system upgrades.

 

[The Spaz]

The point of having this kind of messageboard is too help not bash.

 

[biped]

when you forced him to come up with his own, IT was incorrect too (more even grounding and adding capacitance to an electrical system are very different things).

i didn't say they were the same thing, i said they'd give the same result in most applications.

and, spaz, the problem is that people tend to post here before they do any research on their own. firstly, our answers are not always correct. and secondly, it is far more satisfying to search on your own and piece together information from more than one source so you can come to your own conclusion rather than relying on someone else's.

 

[rubyred3]

[quote author=biped link=topic=71960.msg1267480#msg1267480 date=1173900563]
i didn't say they were the same thing, i said they'd give the same result in most applications.
[/quote]
[quote author=rubyred3 link=topic=71960.msg1267308#msg1267308 date=1173896182]
I've rarely seen a car actually gain hp from electrical system upgrades.
[/quote]

yeah, we kinda said the same thing, although it has been documented that the condenser does cause a significant gain (well, prevents a dip thats there stock) in our car over a very specific RPM, likely due to some other component drawing a lot of current away from the ignition (VTCS? VLIM? not sure exactly what). This problem is helped only by adding capacitance, not by evening out ground levels over the chasis, so I don't think they would do the same thing, but I'm theorizing at this point.

 

[myork]

Ok here is exactly what a BCC or condensor actually does, rubyred3 is on the right track for the most part.

The condensor is actually a voltage stabilizer that is comprised of a number of capacitors matched to a 12-14.4 volt charging system. The effect of a capacitor in parallel with a voltage source is that is smooths out dips and spikes in the votlage. This is exactly how recitifers and AC/DC converters work. So connecting this stabilizer in parallel with your battery helps to keep the voltage stable while the engine is running. It doesnt add any electrical power, it simply stores up some to keep the voltage stable during dips (by releasing the stored energy, but only to a point - this is absolutely NO cure for exceeding the output of the alternator), and by being in a parallel circuit with your battery, helps to keep the voltage down during any spikes.

The condensor itself does nothing to your ground, the additional grounds included with the stabilizer, which are consequently added to the negative terminal of your battery, are what helps the grounding of the vehicle. The effect that each part of the kit has on your charging system are mutually exclusive.

As to their benefits, I have a BCC installed along with a beefed up grounding system, and did not notice or feel any added power (neither of these will add horsepower, unless your original charging system was not properly working beforehand). What I absolutely did notice was that the car does run smoother, and any off idle stumble associated with the ETB was noticeably decreased (it was all but eliminated in my case). My personal opinion is that grounding the throttle body accomplished much of this because the intake manifolds on our cars are plastic which isolates the TB from a real solid ground, other than the small ground wire in the TB harness.

Take it or leave it, but you cannot argue with pure electronic theory, a capacitor in parallel with a voltage source will control the amount of voltage across it, period.

 

[biped]

:bowdown:

was i at all on the right track?

 

[bearda]

Well, I am an electrical engineer, but that doesn't mean I know shit about cars

I have had a TB ground installed and got the BCC a short while thereafter, though. I totally agree with myork; despite the dynos that show the condenser smoothing out the "dip" in the curve there really isn't anything of a power increase to be felt. Saying a condenser is good for +10 hp is misleading to say the least, sounds like ricer-talk to say the least.

I do feel like my ATX shifts a good bit smoother, though. I originally had a TB ground on, but I also noticed an additional improvement going from the TB ground to the BCC, so at least in my experience the condenser has some added tangible benefit above and beyond just grounding. Others have noticed things like their headlights flickering less, although I don't think I payed enough attention before I got the BCC to be able to tell a difference.

 

[rubyred3]

I'm a mechanical engineer who got a C+ in his circuits class, so I very well could have been talking out of my ass, thanks for the clarification myork.

 

[HouRman]

Since we are throwing credentials out there before we post, I'm the village idiot. hehe j/k

Anyways, I think that the winner of BCC vs ground kit effectiveness is going to be dependent on a factor that's been overlooked.

If your car has poor grounds, then upgrading the big three grounds should improve the electrical system overall. This will include decreasing headlight dim in some cars during heavy bass loads.

The BCC replaces the ground wires and UPGRADES them so what might actually be happening, is the NEW grounds + NEW bcc may be showing a dyno improvement in some cases. How will we know if the condenser or the ground is helping if everyone upgrades them both?

So unless somebody can DYNO stock, then with upgraded grounds, then with BCC... Then we may not know whether the BCC is helping the most, or is it just the new grounds that are helping.

 

[GreyKiller2005]

Anyone have a picture of a ground wire kit installed?

 

[micven55]

[quote author=myork link=topic=71960.msg1269216#msg1269216 date=1173975221]
Ok here is exactly what a BCC or condensor actually does, rubyred3 is on the right track for the most part.

The condensor is actually a voltage stabilizer that is comprised of a number of capacitors matched to a 12-14.4 volt charging system. The effect of a capacitor in parallel with a voltage source is that is smooths out dips and spikes in the votlage. This is exactly how recitifers and AC/DC converters work. So connecting this stabilizer in parallel with your battery helps to keep the voltage stable while the engine is running. It doesnt add any electrical power, it simply stores up some to keep the voltage stable during dips (by releasing the stored energy, but only to a point - this is absolutely NO cure for exceeding the output of the alternator), and by being in a parallel circuit with your battery, helps to keep the voltage down during any spikes.

The condensor itself does nothing to your ground, the additional grounds included with the stabilizer, which are consequently added to the negative terminal of your battery, are what helps the grounding of the vehicle. The effect that each part of the kit has on your charging system are mutually exclusive.

As to their benefits, I have a BCC installed along with a beefed up grounding system, and did not notice or feel any added power (neither of these will add horsepower, unless your original charging system was not properly working beforehand). What I absolutely did notice was that the car does run smoother, and any off idle stumble associated with the ETB was noticeably decreased (it was all but eliminated in my case). My personal opinion is that grounding the throttle body accomplished much of this because the intake manifolds on our cars are plastic which isolates the TB from a real solid ground, other than the small ground wire in the TB harness.

Take it or leave it, but you cannot argue with pure electronic theory, a capacitor in parallel with a voltage source will control the amount of voltage across it, period.
[/quote]

Err, well, I'll argue with it a little. A capacitor in parallel with a voltage source will not control the voltage across the source, in fact it's the other way around. The voltage source controls the voltage across the capacitor. Since the alternator and the battery respond slowly to sudden current demands the capacitor will supply "extra current" that comes fromed the stored charge in the capacitor thereby preventing the voltage from dipping as much as it would have without the capacitor. Of course this doesn't last forever, so if you have a load that is constantly requiring large fast current surges the cars charging system will not be able to keep the capacitor sufficiently charged.

 

[Phames11]

Well no matter what your intent is, there can be no harm in creating an even flow of current. Suppose you want a nice sound system. Will performing an installation of the condenser benefit you? Sure, it will over all increase life of all components by running them at constant rate as opposed to pops and drains on the system. Now during heavy loads such as driving up hills with your AC on and other sounds systems pounding the whole way through and 2 passengers weighing down the car, the engine is working hard with it's limited torque, so the current begins to strain and current slips, (remember the alternator runs off the drive belt) Having a consistent quality or high amp current will benefit you by decreasing load. Maybe not noticeable in your seat, but your engine could be thanking you! Where grounding helps is that it will decrease resistance in the whole electrical system, hence the "smoother ride you feel."

This whole discussion has probably originated from an audiophiles discussion...that ended in a joke of something like"yeah and I swear my cars faster too." ...right..with all the added weight of a new "system" and all.. But I digress..haha always wanted to say that.

The truth is the smoother ANYTHING runs the better it is for the whole...weakest link?...so why not do it for the longevity of our cars..if for anything at all.

Now one last thing someone in here said that nothing can be had from electrical upgrades...please refer to www.msdignition.com

Yeah, I will ground my throttle Body and I will buy a condenser....but I will also have a "system" too. However, co-relation does not equal causation. Very valuable thread though because these are this intricate workings that engineers think of when they design cars. There is that merit in all knowledge and the ability to control cost to the minimum yet quality thats manageable.

 

[mz3frs]

[quote author=Greykiller2005 link=topic=71960.msg1339802#msg1339802 date=1176737374]
Anyone have a picture of a ground wire kit installed?
[/quote]

http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=44300.0
http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=30140.0