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Back To BEGi for more modifications.
Measured the pull on the air box at 3.5/4.0 inches of vacuum. That’s 12%
of the atmosphere unavailable to the turbo. That will add about 30 F to the
air charge before the IC, as well as reducing the mass of the atmosphere.
Corky started on a new airbox and has reduced the vacuum to a total of 1/2
to 3/4 of one inch.
A good first step now many more to go.
The Xede still has not caused a cel and still runs great. Pictures and dyno will follow for each step.
This is as much fun as modifying a flathead with a cam, home made headers :klavergreg: and 3 Stromberg 97s.
 

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[quote author=1967abarth link=topic=70114.msg1222130#msg1222130 date=1172096601]
Back To BEGi for more modifications.
Measured the pull on the air box at 3.5/4.0 inches of vacuum. That’s 12%
of the atmosphere unavailable to the turbo. That will add about 30 F to the
air charge before the IC, as well as reducing the mass of the atmosphere.
Corky started on a new airbox and has reduced the vacuum to a total of 1/2
to 3/4 of one inch.
A good first step now many more to go.
The Xede still has not caused a cel and still runs great. Pictures and dyno will follow for each step.
This is as much fun as modifying a flathead with a cam, home made headers :klavergreg: and 3 Stromberg 97s.

[/quote]

Just out of curiousity, why doesn't he want to go with a CAI? The Mazdaspeed is apparently shipping and there are already some CPE installs.
 

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nice, i look forward to seeing his results, so far all i see is very nice work down there.
 

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I assume that ya'll mean CAI - cold air intake? Here is Corky's thoughts on that. How is it a cold air intake, cold, when it can pull hot air from the engine bay?

We are currently using a CAB - Cool Air Box. It is totally enclosed, with an air source outside of the engine/under hood area. Thus allowing cooler air to the turbo, so the increase of temperatures when under boost are even less. Cooler Temperatures = More Power

We have measured temps inside the box under boost and they still remain within 10% of ambient with no vacuum pull.

BTW - we were all shocked, but not surprised, by the vacuum pull on the stock air box. Totally explains the difference in power on the dyno with the lid on and off. That is 12% to 14% of your available power.
Stephanie
 

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its probably something like the volant intake.
 

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Have they tossed around the idea of using the ducting thats already there, for the Intercooler, to duct air to the intake? or incorperate the intake into it somehow?
 

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Both CAI available take air from inside the fenderwell. That is NOT inside the engine bay and will pull in cold air just the same as any intake box drawing from "outside the engine bay" will.
 

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both CAI's pull air a pretty good distance inside the engine bay inside a metal tube. means it has plenty of time to increase in temperature...Maybe there looking at getting air from a more direct area.
 

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[quote author=Coulda link=topic=70114.msg1224457#msg1224457 date=1172171263]
both CAI's pull air a pretty good distance inside the engine bay inside a metal tube. means it has plenty of time to increase in temperature...Maybe there looking at getting air from a more direct area.
[/quote]

Yeah, I don't really understand pulling air from the wheelwell. Maybe it's b/c it's protected from rain (except in a submerge situation)?
As far as heating happening while the air is being pulled through the tube, maybe we should wrap some insulation around it. Would be ugly as hell, though. Especially on my beautiful red CPE, when I get it, I mean. If this really is an issue, though, why isn't insulation incorporated into the design of CAI's?
 

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[quote author=Stephanie Turner link=topic=70114.msg1223971#msg1223971 date=1172162443]
I assume that ya'll mean CAI - cold air intake? Here is Corky's thoughts on that. How is it a cold air intake, cold, when it can pull hot air from the engine bay?

We are currently using a CAB - Cool Air Box. It is totally enclosed, with an air source outside of the engine/under hood area. Thus allowing cooler air to the turbo, so the increase of temperatures when under boost are even less. Cooler Temperatures = More Power

We have measured temps inside the box under boost and they still remain within 10% of ambient with no vacuum pull.

BTW - we were all shocked, but not surprised, by the vacuum pull on the stock air box. Totally explains the difference in power on the dyno with the lid on and off. That is 12% to 14% of your available power.
Stephanie

[/quote]

this might confirm my suspicion that you will gain same if not more with cold air ducting routing cooler outside air more directly into the stock airbox, and adding a K&N, than you will with a CAI. of course the CAI sounds nice, and there are dyno numbers to back up...but this mod would be cheaper. Anyway, I have done this on all my cars that I run hard in hot weather, never made an accurate before and after measurement for airbox/intake temps, but always seems more on butt dyno...and better mpg. After routing cold air duct to the tripple webbers on the z, I can now place my hand on the carbs after running hard. before this, I could fry an egg on them, as the fuel boiled out. Also, a good heat deflector on the airbox seems to help too...which are made out of aluminium on nascar and race applications.
 

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[quote author=desperado callado link=topic=70114.msg1224538#msg1224538 date=1172172971]
[quote author=Coulda link=topic=70114.msg1224457#msg1224457 date=1172171263]
both CAI's pull air a pretty good distance inside the engine bay inside a metal tube. means it has plenty of time to increase in temperature...Maybe there looking at getting air from a more direct area.
[/quote]

Yeah, I don't really understand pulling air from the wheelwell. Maybe it's b/c it's protected from rain (except in a submerge situation)?
As far as heating happening while the air is being pulled through the tube, maybe we should wrap some insulation around it. Would be ugly as hell, though. Especially on my beautiful red CPE, when I get it, I mean. If this really is an issue, though, why isn't insulation incorporated into the design of CAI's?
[/quote]

I've read studies that the material of the tube (ie plastic, metal, aluminium) does little to affect the temp of the inside of the tube as far as automotive applications go.
what this seems to be doing is grabbing even cooler air from outside, than you would with a cai (it doesn;t matter where you put a CAI under the hood, it will always pull in warmer air than if you ran a pipe directly from outside the car, so in both cases the temp may go up 30F before hitting intercooler, but in this case it is lower than the CAI to begin with.
 

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[quote author=dutchie3 link=topic=70114.msg1224590#msg1224590 date=1172174175]
[quote author=desperado callado link=topic=70114.msg1224538#msg1224538 date=1172172971]
[quote author=Coulda link=topic=70114.msg1224457#msg1224457 date=1172171263]
both CAI's pull air a pretty good distance inside the engine bay inside a metal tube. means it has plenty of time to increase in temperature...Maybe there looking at getting air from a more direct area.
[/quote]

Yeah, I don't really understand pulling air from the wheelwell. Maybe it's b/c it's protected from rain (except in a submerge situation)?
As far as heating happening while the air is being pulled through the tube, maybe we should wrap some insulation around it. Would be ugly as hell, though. Especially on my beautiful red CPE, when I get it, I mean. If this really is an issue, though, why isn't insulation incorporated into the design of CAI's?
[/quote]

I've read studies that the material of the tube (ie plastic, metal, aluminium) does little to affect the temp of the inside of the tube as far as automotive applications go.
what this seems to be doing is grabbing even cooler air from outside, than you would with a cai (it doesn;t matter where you put a CAI under the hood, it will always pull in warmer air than if you ran a pipe directly from outside the car, so in both cases the temp may go up 30F before hitting intercooler, but in this case it is lower than the CAI to begin with.
[/quote]

The CAI is not under the hood at all, it's in the wheel well. I seriously doubt it's 30F higher in the wheel well, if that's what you're saying.
 

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At WOT, no air spends any amount of time inside the CAI or intake mani long enough to have heat transfered to it. Obviously the TMIC is an exception to this, as it is supposed to be.

Look, Corky is an engineer of considerable acclaim. His way will be what he and his staff think is the best way. If it's significantly different than the conventional, so much the better for his marketability. He'll fill a niche that that standard CAI won't. Performance, product differentiation, substantial engineering, it's all good. I'd guess it's not going to be all *that* different in results, but will be the path less travelled.

Now then, pressurizing the factory airbox with some 3" ducting......more expensive than you'd imagine to do it correctly, but still 1/3 the cost of the Mazdaspeed3 CAI. Lots of folks do this for lots of different vehicles and very few, if any, have ever lost hp. It's proven and it's good.

While I'm all about the performance and could care less about the whoosh and hiss of a turbo......okay, nevermind, I want the whoosh and hiss as long as it adds whp/wtq.......
 

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[quote author=desperado callado link=topic=70114.msg1225370#msg1225370 date=1172187696]
[quote author=dutchie3 link=topic=70114.msg1224590#msg1224590 date=1172174175]
[quote author=desperado callado link=topic=70114.msg1224538#msg1224538 date=1172172971]
[quote author=Coulda link=topic=70114.msg1224457#msg1224457 date=1172171263]
both CAI's pull air a pretty good distance inside the engine bay inside a metal tube. means it has plenty of time to increase in temperature...Maybe there looking at getting air from a more direct area.
[/quote]

Yeah, I don't really understand pulling air from the wheelwell. Maybe it's b/c it's protected from rain (except in a submerge situation)?
As far as heating happening while the air is being pulled through the tube, maybe we should wrap some insulation around it. Would be ugly as hell, though. Especially on my beautiful red CPE, when I get it, I mean. If this really is an issue, though, why isn't insulation incorporated into the design of CAI's?
[/quote]

I've read studies that the material of the tube (ie plastic, metal, aluminium) does little to affect the temp of the inside of the tube as far as automotive applications go.
what this seems to be doing is grabbing even cooler air from outside, than you would with a cai (it doesn;t matter where you put a CAI under the hood, it will always pull in warmer air than if you ran a pipe directly from outside the car, so in both cases the temp may go up 30F before hitting intercooler, but in this case it is lower than the CAI to begin with.
[/quote]

The CAI is not under the hood at all, it's in the wheel well. I seriously doubt it's 30F higher in the wheel well, if that's what you're saying.

[/quote]

my mistake, it is not under the hood in this case. but if you had a CAI that was, that arguement would apply.
 

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[quote author=desperado callado link=topic=70114.msg1224538#msg1224538 date=1172172971]
Yeah, I don't really understand pulling air from the wheelwell. Maybe it's b/c it's protected from rain (except in a submerge situation)? [/quote]
Pulling air from the wheel well or from behind/below a headlight is a good idea because the air temp is closer to ambient than near the radiator. When located in this area is picks up air head on and from the side.

I've read studies that the material of the tube (ie plastic, metal, aluminium) does little to affect the temp of the inside of the tube as far as automotive applications go.
Actually, the opposite is very true. We have done many tests in house to prove it. Aluminum will act as an insulator, Mild steel will give off heat, and Stainless will give off some heat but insulate most of it. See here for an explanation.
http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/comments.html

Corky designs the Air intakes so they are totally enclosed. The air filter and the incoming air are protected from heat radiating off the engine. Sometimes they add power and torque sometimes they do not. BUT, most importantly, it makes the system more efficient. If one could pick up 2% efficiency here, 3% with a downpipe, 4% with a manifold, etc... before it is all said in done there has been a 10% increase in power and efficiency.

We have found that different MAF flanges and different Air filter sizes can cause CEL's. Very strange. But I think we finally found a combination that works.
Stephanie
 

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[quote author=dutchie3 link=topic=70114.msg1227042#msg1227042 date=1172248763]
my mistake, it is not under the hood in this case. but if you had a CAI that was, that arguement would apply.
[/quote]

That would be a SRI though, not a CAI. :lol:
 

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[quote author=Stephanie Turner link=topic=70114.msg1227108#msg1227108 date=1172249968]
[quote author=desperado callado link=topic=70114.msg1224538#msg1224538 date=1172172971]
Yeah, I don't really understand pulling air from the wheelwell. Maybe it's b/c it's protected from rain (except in a submerge situation)? [/quote]
Pulling air from the wheel well or from behind/below a headlight is a good idea because the air temp is closer to ambient than near the radiator. When located in this area is picks up air head on and from the side.

I've read studies that the material of the tube (ie plastic, metal, aluminium) does little to affect the temp of the inside of the tube as far as automotive applications go.
Actually, the opposite is very true. We have done many tests in house to prove it. Aluminum will act as an insulator, Mild steel will give off heat, and Stainless will give off some heat but insulate most of it. See here for an explanation.
http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/comments.html

We have found that different MAF flanges and different Air filter sizes can cause CEL's. Very strange. But I think we finally found a combination that works.
Stephanie
[/quote]


I have three questions for you:

1. To my understanding, aluminum is one of the best heat conductors on the face of the planet. So why would aluminum be the best insulator in your tests? Was the aluminum treated with something?

2. By flange, do you mean housing?

Flange: noun
a projection used for strength or for attaching to another object

Just curious if you really mean the flange had something to do with the CEL or if it was the housing diameter that caused the problem? Thanks in advance Stephanie!
 

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My bad. I meant silicone. Sorry.. Silicone is an insulator and Aluminum is not. When we used the aluminum compressor outlet tube the temperatures actually read about the same as the mild steel. Temperatures inside the air box have been measure within +/- 2 degrees of ambient.

By flange, I mean mounting joint. From a dictionary reference: \\\"a ring or collar, usually provided with holes for bolts, and screwed or welded over the end of a tube or pipe to permit other objects to be attached to it. \\\" Basically the MAF meter bolts up to a flat surface that is attached to the air inlet tube. The MAF flange has to be the same as stock (not bigger) or it will throw a CEL. Also the air filter has to be a certain size. If it is too big, there is too much air flow, the ECU freaks, and throws a CEL. The air filter on there now is running fine and not illuminating the CEL.
Sorry for the earlier confusion,
Stephanie
 

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Corky designs the Air intakes so they are totally enclosed. The air filter and the incoming air are protected from heat radiating off the engine. Sometimes they add power and torque sometimes they do not. BUT, most importantly, it makes the system more efficient. If one could pick up 2% efficiency here, 3% with a downpipe, 4% with a manifold, etc... before it is all said in done there has been a 10% increase in power and efficiency.
At wide-open throttle, the air passes through the intake so quickly that even a typical hot pipe can only raise IAT's a few degrees- no biggie. The source of the air is much more important, as you later mention.

I'm glad you retracted your comment about aluminum as an insulator, though- that was totally preposterous. Aluminum is what many heat sinks are made from!

[quote author=Stephanie Turner link=topic=70114.msg1223971#msg1223971 date=1172162443]We are currently using a CAB - Cool Air Box. It is totally enclosed, with an air source outside of the engine/under hood area. Thus allowing cooler air to the turbo, so the increase of temperatures when under boost are even less. Cooler Temperatures = More Power[/quote]
I'm actually a big fan of the cool air box for the reason that they can be designed with velocity stacks, that they do not require air straighteners prior to the MAF, and that the MAF is totally shielded from gusts of wind. You mention none of these advantages! The disadvantage is that these intakes are generally less space efficient and expensive, FWIW. Any properly designed intake will draw from a cold air source.

We have measured temps inside the box under boost and they still remain within 10% of ambient with no vacuum pull.
No vacuum pull? Perhaps you should rephrase that as "lower vacuum" or something that isn't a lie. There will always be a pressure drop in the intake, due mostly from the large intrusion of the MAF. This can be dramatically reduced but it always exists.

BTW - we were all shocked, but not surprised, by the vacuum pull on the stock air box. Totally explains the difference in power on the dyno with the lid on and off. That is 12% to 14% of your available power.
Stephanie
This comment is actually the one that prompted me to post. The vacuum predominately comes from the MAF housing. Sometimes accordion tubes mess up flow, too, but predominately it's the intrusion of a huge MAF that causes the pressure drop.

How are you alleviating this? You make no mention of how you are addressing this. The easiest and most common way to decrease this pressure drop is to increase the diameter of the tube where the MAF is, but this destroys the calibration of the MAF. You fuel trims will go off and the car won't be able to meter air (hence fuel) properly. In a car like the Mazdaspeed3 that runs high compression and high boost, metering air is one of the MOST important functions of all the electronics on the car!

There are two get more flow through the MAF section without compromising its accuracy: one is to use a large diameter intake in conjunction with an electronic fuel tuner and to recalibrate the MAF (using the tuner) on a dyno. This is very expensive. The other is to machine a custom MAF housing that shrinks down and simulates an air velocity of exactly the stock intake. This is very hard to accomplish and requires boatloads of trial-and-error (math helps too)- the only company I know of to successfully accomplish this on the Mazdaspeed3 is Custom Performance Engineering.

What concerns me is that you mention neither of these solutions and instead tell us that aluminum is an insulator.

We have found that different MAF flanges and different Air filter sizes can cause CEL's. Very strange. But I think we finally found a combination that works.
Stephanie
You think, or you are sure? I don't usually make a big stink out of intake kits since it's almost a give-in that most suck and throw off the fuel trims. However, you are persistently claiming otherwise, and this thread has rubbed me the wrong way. I apologize for being so crass. Still- what tests have you run to verify this? If you don't mind, post the data logs.
 
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