Brake System Flushing Tools - Page 5 - Mazda3 Forums : The #1 Mazda 3 Forum
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post #41 of 49 (permalink) Old 09-16-2018, 03:49 AM
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Math question....

If I have 1.5 quarts of brake fluid that will represent the total amount in a hypothetical ABS complete brake system and there is an accumulated 1/6 OZ of water in the system. What is the percentage of water in brake fluid?
Hint...it is a trick question!

the correct answer is
who cares
if brake fluid has water in it, it needs flushing and then it will have 0 percent water
or does it need bleeding?
after all this bs i'm not sure anymore
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Last edited by lout; 09-16-2018 at 03:57 AM.
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post #42 of 49 (permalink) Old 09-16-2018, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lout View Post
if brake fluid has water in it, it needs flushing and then it will have 0 percent water
or does it need bleeding?
i'm not sure anymore
^^^lout.... Occupation mechanic since 1988^^^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by lout View Post
i normally flush the brakes every couple of years and perform an abs bleed/flush on any vehicle i havent worked on before or every second change of fluid and anytime the system has been open to air and as mentioned an appropriate scan tool is required
__________________________________________________ ____________________


flushed and then bleed



Different FSM and one RM:
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Basically from several Technical Servicing informational sources:
Some ABS devices have their own internal reservoirs (Bosch ABS5.3, for example) that are not a part of the primary brake circuit and are only opened to the rest of the circuit when the ABS is active. Now, if you just bled your system as soon as the ABS cycled - even for a few tenths of a second - the "old" fluid (which was never bled because it was hidden) would be dumped into the primary circuit. Not the end of the world, but you want fresh fluid everywhere, right?


Most better quality Auto Service Centers use the TEST stripes as I use and have pictured and recommended to use on this thread to do a sample checking of your brake fluid .

20180905_125613.jpg

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Another source that uses and recomends the TEST strips.
How do you know when it’s time for a brake fluid flush? Visually check the fluid to see how translucent — or how black — it is. And then use test strips, which measures the moisture content in your brake fluid.

reasons why you should flush your brake fluid
.... periodically flushing brake fluid to remove dirty, contaminated fluid from the system, especially on today’s vehicles with ABS and traction control. Here’s why you should flush your brake fluid:

Brake fluid is “hygroscopic,” which means it actively attracts moisture from the air. This is often touted as the main reason to change your brake fluid. Because many parts of your braking system are made of metal, flushing the brake fluid can prevent corrosion and failure of those metal components.
As brake fluid ages and becomes contaminated with small particles, the boiling point of the fluid goes down. This reduces your braking performance, which you might not notice for awhile, but every inch counts when it comes to braking. In extreme cases, it can lead to the brakes not working at all.
As your ABS and traction control systems activate, they generate heat, which further breaks down the fluid.
Anti-lock braking (ABS) and traction control components are sensitive to moisture and small particulates from contaminated fluid. We recommend flushing the fluid before it can damage these pricey parts. An ABS module, for example, usually costs several hundred dollars.

__________________________________________________ _____
While I would say that a complete flushing and brake fluid replacement is the best service for an ABS system a periodic basic fluid replacement at the brake master cylinder and then bleeding the complete system at the calipers is better then no service at all.

Last edited by M3RacerX; 09-16-2018 at 10:39 AM.
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post #43 of 49 (permalink) Old 09-16-2018, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3RacerX View Post
While I would say that a complete flushing and brake fluid replacement is the best service for an ABS system a periodic basic fluid replacement at the brake master cylinder and then bleeding the complete system at the calipers is better than no service at all.


I believe I said this before, but most "car guys" won't blink at changing their oil. However, for some reason, servicing the fluid and filter for the transmission; power steering; cooling system; and brake system, are all disregarded as not necessary.
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Last edited by VWandDodge; 09-16-2018 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Fixed my grammar
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post #44 of 49 (permalink) Old 09-16-2018, 04:19 PM
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sorry, hard to show i was joking that's why i put the smiley face in
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post #45 of 49 (permalink) Old 09-18-2018, 07:57 AM
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theblooms,

Ever heard of "three two" beer? This is beer that is only 3.2% alcohol...

This kind of stuff really irked me when I worked as an electrochemist. My chemistry colleagues just told me to calculate everything in moles because then you don't have to worry about stupid naming conventions by weight or volume or whatever. Moles is moles in the chemistry world and normalizes everything.
The specific gravity of DOT 3/4 brake fluid is 1.064-1.070 at 23ºC. You could certainly use the C1V1=C2V2 if you wanted to, but because the sp.gr. is almost identical to water anyway, it won't change the number much at all.

For what it's worth, I have a BS in Chemistry, and am a nuclear chemist.
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post #46 of 49 (permalink) Old 09-18-2018, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblooms View Post
The specific gravity of DOT 3/4 brake fluid is 1.064-1.070 at 23ºC. You could certainly use the C1V1=C2V2 if you wanted to, but because the sp.gr. is almost identical to water anyway, it won't change the number much at all.

For what it's worth, I have a BS in Chemistry, and am a nuclear chemist.
Sweeeeeet! It's great to know your background. I'm sure your chemistry knowledge far exceeds mine.

I was seriously rambling when I wrote that; another thread successfully derailed. Hoo ra!

On the thought of beer again (oh my): after mashing and sparging, the OG (original gravity) measurement and FG (final gravity measurement) are critical. We always measure out to three significant digits, so a starting value of 1.052 from all the extracted maltose+dextrose is very important to note. You only need to get down to about 1.020 after fermentation to achieve an alcohol content of ~5% abv. This is not exact - I don't want to look up the conversion formula.

So, 1.064-1.070 seems to be not close to water. Maybe I'm over-thinking this... Hydrometers are pretty sensitive and accurate wouldn't you say?
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post #47 of 49 (permalink) Old 09-18-2018, 04:49 PM
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They definitely are pretty sensitive, ours go to 3 decimal places, but we don't start worrying about it until it hits 1.10 or greater. 1.06 just isn't enough to change *real world* numbers that much at all. At work, because of the intense pressures involved (2235 psi at 587ºF liquid on the primary side, steam 1,050 psi steam on the secondary), we don't really deal with volumes at all, just pounds mass of water. The pounds mass doesn't change, no matter the pressure or temperature, whereas the volumes taken up by that water can vary greatly.

When we add 20% sodium hydroxide to the spray add tanks, that has a sp.gr. of about 1.2 at 50ºC, that's a 20% swing, that's a huge difference, and we must account for it.

We keep the math as simple as possible, and it works. Hell, since I got out of college, I've only used calculus once at work, and only other time to teach my wife how to find the vertex of a parabola after she went back to college.
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post #48 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-09-2018, 12:40 PM
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Courtesy of MrBen on Mazda3Revolution forum:

https://youtu.be/fUqmBqYIEAE

The Autel MaxiCheck Pro can bleed ABS systems. The YouTube video is simple but informative.

I have the Autel MD802 MaxiDiag Elite. It can perform some ABS functions, but it is unclear to me if it can actually bleed the ABS system. Looks like I'll get to play around with it! Here is what is listed under Electronic Parking Brake.

This electric parking brake (EPB) function has a multitude of uses to maintain the electronic braking systems safely and effectively. The applications include deactivating/activating the brake control system, assisting with brake fluid control, brake diagnostics, opening and closing brake pads, setting brakes after disc or pad replacement and also reading and clearing EPB/SBC trouble codes. It is also capable of retrieving Fault Codes information from the ECU.

And under ABS:

In the ABS diagnostic function, the tool can read codes, erase codes, record live data, read ECU information, perform active test, and perform special function.

What's unclear to me is what is included in "perform special function." The menu lists a number of items, but looks like there is no automatic bleed operation like with the Autel MaxiCheck Pro shown in the video. Both tools cost less than $200.

ACTIVE TEST menu
1. ABS/ASR recirculation pump
2. Left front intake solenoid valve
3. Right front intake solenoid valve
4. Left rear intake solenoid valve
5. Right rear intake solenoid valve
6. Switching solenoid valve 1
7. Switching solenoid valve 2
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post #49 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-09-2018, 01:14 PM
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There does not appear to be a ABS flush fluid replacement programmed in either unless they have a newer model that specifically includes flushing and replacement of the brake fluid in the ABS. The video presented in the last response you can only hear the ABS cycling which is only bleeding air and not replacing the brake fluid normally done when flushing and replacing brake fluid during a complete flush and replacement procedure. The ABS valves must remain open during that service and really requires a much better ABS Diagnostic Device.

I have no experience with any of the mentioned "inexpensive" and limited use tools mentioned in the last thread and only use my Snap-on for ABS servicing.


You know I constantly see on the market all these Diagnostic Scanning tools and so many are cheap "JUNK" and really do not cover the complete ECU available index of many cars even in the early 2 to mid 2000-2010 production years. Even my ULTRA GAUGE which I own several and it is in every car I own has limitations to what I can retrieve and perform on the fly.

If you are really into DIY then invest in a good scanning tool and not cut corners with all the "junk".
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