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Old 09-09-2005, 03:19 AM   #1
TallJalapeņos
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Default Mazda3 engine with Vtec?

My friend and i were talking, he has a B20b engine in his acura integra, and i have my mazda3, he wants to get vtec on his... he says it'll give him more horses but we both don't know how many... and i got curious... is it possible to install a Vtec cam on a mazda 3 engine? a DOHC VTEC? if so, how many horses could it probably get?
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Old 09-09-2005, 03:48 AM   #2
3AndMe
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Default Re: Mazda3 engine with Vtec?

What's wrong with the VVT that the Mazda 3 already has?
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Old 09-09-2005, 04:55 AM   #3
fistofsouth
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Default Re: Mazda3 engine with Vtec?

[quote author=TallJalapeņos link=topic=28995.msg400119#msg400119 date=1126246784]
My friend and i were talking, he has a B20b engine in his acura integra, and i have my mazda3, he wants to get vtec on his... he says it'll give him more horses but we both don't know how many... and i got curious... is it possible to install a Vtec cam on a mazda 3 engine? a DOHC VTEC? if so, how many horses could it probably get?
[/quote]

It sounds to me like you need a definition of what VTEC is.* I don’t mean to be condescending so don’t take this as such if you are already familiar with the following information from Wikipedia:

VTEC: VTEC (standing for Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control) is a system developed by the car manufacturer Honda to improve the combustion efficiency of its internal combustion engines throughout the RPM range.

In the regular four-stroke automobile engine, the intake and exhaust valves are actuated by lobes on a camshaft. The shape of the lobes' determine both the timing and the lift of each valve. Timing refers to when a valve is opened or closed with respect to the combustion cycle. Lift refers to how much the valve is opened. Due to the behavior of the gases (air and fuel mixture) before and after combustion, which have physical limitations on their flow, as well as their interaction with the ignition spark, the optimal valve timing and lift settings under low RPM engine operations are very different from those under high RPM. Optimal low RPM valve timing and lift settings would result in insufficient fuel and air at high RPMs, thus greatly limiting engine power output. Conversely, optimal high RPM valve timing and lift settings would result in very rough low RPM operation and difficult idling. The ideal engine would have fully variable valve timing and lift, in which the valves would always open at exactly the right point and lift high enough for the engine speed in use.

In practice, such a perfectly adjustable timing and lift system is complex and expensive to implement and is therefore found only in costly experimental and limited production engines. The vast majority of modern automobile engines operate with a fixed camshaft profile that represents a compromise between low RPM smoothness and high RPM power output. And since the average automobile engine spends most of its time running in the low RPM region, there is typically more emphasis on low RPM smoothness at the expense of high RPM output. Performance-tuned engines have cam profiles that are optimized more towards high RPM operation, where the greatest power can be obtained. But this means that low speed operation is compromised. Anyone who has heard a racing car or a highly-tuned hot rod sitting at idle will note that the engine sounds like it is barely capable of running at that speed.

i-VTEC: As successful as the VTEC system has been, one of the key arguments against it in comparison to competing systems is that it had only two profiles for timing and lift. i-VTEC answers the critics by introducing continuously variable timing. The valve lift is still a 2-stage setup as before, but the camshaft is now rotated via hydraulic control to advance or retard valve timing. The effect is further optimization of torque output, especially at low RPMs.

The versatile MZR is Mazda's latest Straight-4 engine. Development was assisted by Ford, who also sell the engine as the Duratec 23. The MZR family features a special long intake manifold for added torque, S-VT continuous variable valve timing, and a stainless steel 4:1 exhaust header.

1.4 L (1349 cc) (74x78.4 mm)
Used in the Demio/Mazda2/Mazda3
1.5 L (1498 cc) (78x78.4 mm)
Used in the Demio/Mazda2/Verisa/Axela
1.6 L (1598 cc) (78x83.6 mm)
Used in the Mazda3
1.8 L (1798 cc) (83x83.1 mm)
Ford Power Products sells this engine as the DHE-418
2.0 L (1999 cc) (87.5x83.1 mm)
Used in the Axela/Mazda3/Third Generation MX-5
Ford Power Products sells this engine as the DHE-420
2.3 L (2261 cc) (87.5x94 mm)
Used in the Axela/Mazda3/Atenza/Mazda6/Tribute/MPV
A turbocharged version with direct injection is used in the Mazdaspeed 6/Mazda Atenza MPS.
Ford Power Products sells this engine as the DHE-423


Your friend is going to get the best results if he just swaps his engine (B20B, I guess he’s driving a 1997-1998 CRV) for a VTEC engine, preferably an i-VTEC engine such as the K20A2 from an RSX Type-S.* Still I don’t know if such an engine swap is possible; there isn’t a big market for Hybrid CRVs.

3AndMe is correct about the VVT on your Mazda3.* If you have the 2.3Liter you already have an engine that is equal to a 4-cylinder i-VTEC in almost every respect.* I still wish the 2.3 Liter MZR had an intake manifold made out of metal, but it is a good engine nonetheless.

I found the following article on mazda6tech, which explains the differences between VTEC and Mazda’s VVT & VLIM system:

http://www.mazda6tech.com/index.php?...view&id=14

Essentially a VTEC still has a broader torque curve than the MZR engine, but by using VLIM Mazda gets close to the same torque curve as a Honda VTEC engine.* As I said to the average Joe the differences are almost imperceivable.


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Old 09-09-2005, 08:01 AM   #4
azazel1024
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Default Re: Mazda3 engine with Vtec?

Not entirely. AFAIK Most of Honda's systems use multipul cams in conjunction with continuously variable timing control (in the case of the i-VTEC) or simply two sets of cams. The mazda unit does not change the lift by using multipul sets of cams, it only controls the timing control. This means that potential gains are more limited, however cost and complexity is much less.

the s-VVT is a decent system, it is just not as good as say i-VTEC. Also on the MZR motor at least the variable valve timing only operates on the intake cam. Using the same on the exhaust would certainly be useful for a bit better emisions, efficiency, and a bit better power. Most likely for Mazda the potential half mpg, fraction better emissions, and maybe 2hp probably (just a guess, but fairly likely) were not worth Mazda investing the cost in producing the motors with variable valve timing on the intake and exhaust cams.

I don't know why your friend ever got a B20b. That is a friggen truck motor. The motor out of a GSR or type R is so much nicer. Get a B18C or an H22 motor for your friend's integra (or a K20 series).
-Matt
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Old 09-09-2005, 07:06 PM   #5
TallJalapeņos
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Default Re: Mazda3 engine with Vtec?

ah i understand, so its basically the same thing. He said he has a B20 engine from a crx, i searched it and found nothing but B20b's, so for whatever its worth, i actually meant B20 not B20b. so this is nice, no need to add a vtec since i already have a valve timing..
my friend just had amazed me by saying he'd have more than 300 horses once he had the b20/vtec GSR..
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Old 09-09-2005, 07:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Mazda3 engine with Vtec?

thought a b20 is from a crv.
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Old 09-09-2005, 09:16 PM   #7
fistofsouth
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Default Re: Mazda3 engine with Vtec?

[quote author=azazel1024 link=topic=28995.msg400196#msg400196 date=1126263684]
Not entirely. AFAIK Most of Honda's systems use multipul cams in conjunction with continuously variable timing control (in the case of the i-VTEC) or simply two sets of cams. The mazda unit does not change the lift by using multipul sets of cams, it only controls the timing control. This means that potential gains are more limited, however cost and complexity is much less. [/quote]

That’s why I said almost.* Look at my entire post above and you will see that I said essentially the same thing you did.* To summarize:

VTEC in all its implementations varies both valve timing and lift.* VTEC uses multiple camshaft PROFILES to improve low and high RPM performance.* There are two cam lobes (instead of the traditional one) actuating each valve.* Note that VTEC does NOT require multiple cam shafts.* The D15Z1 found in the 1992-1995 Civic VX is a Single Over Head Cam VTEC engine optimized for low-emissions and fuel efficiency.

DOHC VTEC is the system most commonly meant when someone mentions VTEC.* The Dual Over Head Cam VTEC has high and low RPM lobe profiles on the intake and exhaust camshafts.* A SOHC VTEC switches between lobe profiles so smoothly that is hard to tell when the switch occurs, but on a DOHC VTEC you can hear and feel the cam profile change while you are driving.

Toyota (VVT-i) and a number of other manufacturers came out with VVT systems that utilized more than two profiles for lift and timing.* In response Honda developed i-VTEC, which rotates the camshaft using hydraulic control to advance and retard valve timing.* I-VTEC engines thus produce more torque at lower RPMs than a standard VTEC engine.

The Mazda MZR engine featured in the 3 utilizes continuous Variable Valve Timing, but not Lift.* The timing is handled via a static camshaft attached to a cog, which can advance or retard the cam’s timing.* Mazda then utilizes a Variable Length Intake Manifold (VLIM) to increase the torque band on our engines.*

The MZR engine has a solid torque range from 3000 RPM to a little over 5000RPM while a VTEC has torque PEAKS around 2000 RPM and 5000RPM.* Most automotive critics consider Honda’s VTEC engines to be the best 4-cylinder engines available to consumers, but depending on how you drive you might prefer a different implementation such as Toyota’s VVTL-I or the VVT + VLIM used in our cars.

A full list of Honda and Acura engine codes can be found at:

http://www.superhonda.com/tech/honda_engine_codes.html
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Old 09-10-2005, 03:29 AM   #8
TallJalapeņos
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Default Re: Mazda3 engine with Vtec?

oh the VVTL-I, i heard, adds up to 40 horses when at a certain rpm... thats fucking amazing... for example... the celica GT-I has it and i heard it has its boost at that certain RPM... i wonder how a mazda3 compares to the GT-S
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Old 09-10-2005, 12:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Mazda3 engine with Vtec?

I heard the GT-S has no power at all.
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Old 09-10-2005, 12:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: Mazda3 engine with Vtec?

[quote author=TallJalapeņos link=topic=28995.msg401493#msg401493 date=1126333795]
oh the VVTL-I, i heard, adds up to 40 horses when at a certain rpm... thats fucking amazing... for example... the celica GT-I has it and i heard it has its boost at that certain RPM... i wonder how a mazda3 compares to the GT-S
[/quote]

Wow....internet people are very comical.
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