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04 2.3l swap to 2.5l successful

605K views 2K replies 112 participants last post by  MrkMazda 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
This post is a bit poor as im currently posting from my phone. So its a work in progress. Ill. Add step by step purchase list, total cost, and proof in pictures. And a q&a section. My goal is to get a sticky.

I wanted to share with the community that I successfully swapped a 2.5l into my 2004 Mazda 3 2.3l hatch back.

The short story. Got rod knock in my 2.3l motor needed replace. Wanted a 2.5 for the power and no oil leak problem like the 2.3l

Bought a 2011 ford fusion 2.5l motor simply because its way way cheaper than a Mazda brand motor. Its the same long block and that's all u really use. Stripped the ford motor down to the metal. Toss the ford intake, ford wiring harnesses, ford oil pan, ford heater hose block connector thing idk what its called, ford top mount temp sensor, ford intake cam, ford crank pulley, ford timing cover.


Basicallyall you want is the ford long block minus intake cam oil pan timing cover, crank pully, water pully, extra belt tensioners and oil pickup.

Then take pretty much everything off the 2.3 and bolt it to the 2.5 long block. Mazda oil pickup, oil pan, timing cover, intake cam shaft, intake manifold, camshaft position sensor, heater hose connector block thing, and all Mazda wiring.

The ford motor its automatic flywheel so swap that with you're Mazda flywheel and clutch and you need a new pilot bearing to. This would be a great time to get a new clutch if you need it. The clutch kit will come with a pilot bearing.

Here is the guide that i followed its for a Mazda 6 but its pretty much the same for the 3 with some differeces that i will detail below. The ford 2011 ignition and fuel rail are the same as the 04 Mazda. The ford fuel injector is larger to feed the bigger engine and needs to be reused it is compatible with Mazda wiring and ecu. The spark plugs are longer and i used those as well. The spark plug boots look the same so i reused the ford boots as they are newer than my 10 year old Mazda boots.

http://www.happywrenching.com/mazda/6/mazda-6-and-ford-fusion-23l-engine-swap.html


I will be periodically updating this post with more detailed information so check back regularly.

Step 1. Prep:

Purchase list

Ford fusion 2011 2.5L (lkq on ebay) est 600$
Intake manifold gasket (rockauto.com)
rtv silicon gasket maker high temp (walmart)
5qts motor oil (walmart) full synthetic 0w 20
3qts tranny oil (auto parts store API GL-4, SAE 75W-80Capacity 3 USqt
Antifreeze 1 gallon
Clutch kit (optional but you probably should do it if you near 100k)
Pilot bearing (Included in most clutch kits)
Crank pulley bolt and washer. (Got mine from the dealership for like 30$)

Optional: but handy
rust penetrate for all rusted crap
Lock tight high temp
Dielectric grease
Engine degrease

Required/recommend tools:
Torque wrench (required to to it right)
Impact gun (just get one so helpful)
Air wrench(ditto)
Diverse socket adapter set. Long short sockets, extensions, flexing adapters
Good wrench set
Car lifts so so nice otherwise tall jack stands and a crane
Pry bars
Breaker bars
pliers and things
A hose clamp compressor(this thing is awesome)
A coat hanger (thread through the axle holes on tranny otherwise the diff will spin and literately fall apart)

Step 2 get dirty and Pull the motor.
If someone has a good guide let me know and ill post it here otherwise follow the Mazda 6 guide i posted above its pretty good and 90% the same as our car.

Tips manual says to drop it out the bottom. Without a car lift and or a motor jack this sucks. Pull it from the top instead just takes some more wiggling.

CAUTION: when you remove both axles make sure to put the coat hanger through both axle holes. The differential gears are not locked it and they will spin and fall out of alignment. To fix this Right its a a total tear down of the transmission just to put the gears back in place. Happened to me it sucked bad but its not that hard.

Pictures:

THE PROOF Here is the shot of the back of the engine block stating its displacement is 2.5L



This is my car 04 2.5l Mazda 3S



This is the heater block thing. Its different on the ford and has the wrong hose connections. Its 4 bolts to take off fairly easy to do. All the hose connections are under it so i've highlighted the block in a green box.



these are the pullys. I had to remove the mazda crank pully and put it on the ford. Also i had to remove the water pump pully (Center Pully 3 bolts) from the mazda and put it on the ford water pump. Just the water pump pulley was swapped the ford water pump stays in the car.



This is what a pilot bearing looks like. its in the center of the fly wheel



This is the camshaft timing cog. NOTE: ONLY 04-05 HAVE TO SWAP CAM SHAFTS. 06+ its the same as the fords so don't touch the cam and Rock on.


This is the diagram that states that the 06+ are the same as the fords. It only goes to the 2009 but i can confirm that the 2011 ford fusion motor has the same timing cog as the 06-09s.






Part 3 Engine Tear down:

Mazda Eninge

These are all of the parts you will remove from the mazda engine and Transfer to the Ford engine block. BE ORGANIZED there will end up being lots and lots of bolts for everything. Seriously like 100+ bolts Keep it all organized it will make installation much faster. Half my time was looking for the dang bolt in the coffe can of a bazillion similar looking bolts. Good news is if you drop a few don't worry you have lots of duplicates from the ford motor parts you took off.

Head cover (optional: ford one has a big temp sensor hole i didn't like)
Main wiring harness
Ignition Wiring harness
Water block thing
Cam shaft position sensor
Intake camshaft (ONLY FOR 04-05)
Intake Manifold WITH throttle body attached
Timing chain cover
Crank position sensor
Crank Pully (CAUTION:Follow instructions installing this on the ford)
Water pump Pulley ( Only the pully you'll use the ford water pump )
Mazda belt tensioner
Alternator ( My ford didn't come with one )
Starter ( again didn't come with one on it)
Oil filter bracket thing ( for the oil pressure sensor and so jiffy lube doesn't get confused on what oil filter to use )
Oil Pan
Oil pickup ( Black plastic tube thing you'll find in the oil pan)
Oil Dipstick

Ford fusion 2011 motor
Now that you've spent about 4-8 hours taking all of those parts CAREFULLY off the Mazda motor DO IT AGAIN to the ford motor. But all of the ford parts can go into the trash or sold on eBay:

The ford motor has a temperature sensor at the top of the head in between the spark plugs. This is COMPLETELY unnecessary. Just remove it and toss it. Its a solid metal bolt hole so you don't need to plug it or anything like that.

This is what you should have left of a ford motor

Head
Block
Exhaust cam
2006 + cars can keep the intake cam
Timing chain
Water pump NO pulley
Spark Plugs (their longer and a little different)
Fuel injectors ( larger and needed to feed the bigger motor)
Fuel Rail
Spark plug boots (their the same as Mazda but their newer than your Mazda ones so keep em on)
Hope i didn't forget anything

Part 4 The install
Your over the hump all of the dissasembly is done Now that the ford block is stripped an prepared you can begin installing of the Mazda parts you carefully removed.

04-05 start with the camshaft. You will need the timing tools the guide listed. Follow the detailed instructions there. But i will help with an abridged version. Get the timing tools REQUIRED to do it right. Rotate cams to Top dead center. That mean the first 2 lifters (the oval loabe things) are almost pointing toward each other. The front of the cam shaft is the side with the timing chain. On the back of the camshafts is a slot. When at TDC you will be able to slide the timing plat into it. This will keep the cams aligned while you install the chain. When you install the crank pully later you will use this plate again. With the long peg insert it into the side of the block at the specified hole in the guide. Rotate the block CLOCK WISE until i stops against the peg. This is Top dead Center for the crank shaft. Secure the crank somehow so it doesn't rotate even slightly as it can still spin backwards. Now that the crank is secure at TDC and so are the cams Hook up the timing chain and make sure its all bolted down. Cam brackets bolt down to ONLY 16lbs. Thats very light torque these bolts are not grade 8 and you can break them really easily.!!!!!!!!!! DO NOT RELY ON TIMING TOOLS TO HOLD IN PLACE WHILE TORQING DOWN PULLY BOLTS YOU"LL BREAK CAMSHAFTS AND THE TOOLS AND YOU WILL BE PISSED!!!!!


Install the Oil pickup no gasket needed

Install the Oil pan with RTV Gasket maker High temp. BE GENEROUS AND COVER IT REALLY WELL. The last thing you want to do is miss a spot and have an oil leak still.

Install the timing cover. Same rule as the oil pan. LOTS OF RTV. There are also several bolt holes you in the middle of the pan you need to seal with RTV as well.

RTV take 24 hours to properly cure so don't put any fluids in your motor until its set up properly.

Install the crank pully

THIS IS CRITICAL: This is where you can ruin everything. (beside the cam swap if you had to do it.) Bust out the timing tools I KNOW YOU BOUGHT. The flat plate goes into the back of the cam shafts to hold TDC the long screw goes in a special bolt hole on the back of the block. It reaches all the way to the crank shaft. Spin the crank shaft CLOCKWISE will it hits that screw. This is TOP DEAD CENTER. Put the plate in the cams to keep them from wiggling at all. Now Slide on the Crank Pulley. Get out the new Crank pully bolt and washer. DON"T USE THE OLD ONE. This bolt is special its designed to crush and compress and hold the pulley by frcition and pressure. The old bolt won't compress right and can fail during operation. Rotate the pully untill the little bolt hole is at 6 oclock. Take the little bolt and slide it in there is a hole in the block it will line up with and screw it in by hand.

CAUTION: DANGER CAUTION: BRACE THE CRANK SHAFT. What ever you do do not torque down this bolt rellying on the timing tools to hold it still. You'll snap all the tools AND THE CAMSHAFTS WILL BREAK. They are not made to take the extreme torque your about to apply. Lock the flywheel somehow. You might be able to rent a flywheel lock from autozone or you'll have to make one. Or prace the crank pully with stuff. That little bolt in the crank pully will snap or In some cases i've read crack the block.

Ok having said that and everything is all timed up your ready to torque the Crank pully. First torque it down to 78ft lbs. The with a big ass wrench continue turning it an ADDITIONAL 90 degrees. Thats 1/4 a turn Do this slowly. Like push hard then wait 5 minutes. This is to let you rest as this is frigging hard and to give the bolt time to crush and cool down. I'm 270lbs 6'3 and am considered to be a strong man and i found this very difficult to do alone with just a 1/2 inch torque wrench. So grab a buddy and a big cheater bar to get it done. This end up being like 200lbs of torqe.

Good job

Now install the head cover

Great the crank pully and camshaft are the only sensitive and precision steps here. Now just bolt the rest of the parts back on the same way they came off the Mazda. Including the transmission. Make sure the tranny has the little push ring on the rod as it can fall out if its bumped. Grease up the input shaft and that push ring to prevent rust and provide smooth operation. After doing that my clutch is so much smother and easier to depress. It almost feels like its not hooked up.

Now put the motor back into the car. Everything will hoook right up as you have all mazda parts still.

Some problems i ran into
The hose on the back of the intake manifold had a different connector than the Ford. But it was easy to pull it out and put the Mazda hose connection in the block.

Striped alot of bolts becuse im impatient and didn't have rust penetrating oil.

Stripped bolts and broke bolts because i over torqued a lot of rusted crap or very small bolts like the ones on the oil cover and oil pan.

Couldn't remember how the wiring harness went on. That was a long jigsaw puzzle. I suggest taking Detailed pictures before you pull the motor OR as you disassemble all the little wiring brackets and routing paths.

First time starting procedure.

Fill the MANUAL tranny up to 3 qrts as most of the oil probably poored out the axle holes. (How much do the automatics take?) The fill bolt is 24mm and is under the frontside of the tranny and about 1/3 of the way up.

Fill the motor with oil. Since you used the Mazda oil pan your oil capacity is the same. about 4.7 qrts. Fill slowly and check the dipstick regularly so that you don't over fill it.

Now that everything is hooked up and bolted down tight disconnect the spark plugs.
Turn the engine for 15 seconds several times waiting before each crank to cool the starter

This process is to prim the engine with OIL WATER and FUEL.

Now that its had plenty of cranking hook up the spark plugs.

If you did it all right like me it will fire right up.

it will idle rough and run rough for about 50-100 miles as the ECU will be slowly adapting the fuel trims to an optimum value.

If you get any CELS check them out right away to see if they are anything important.

I got a Intake cam timing CEL for about the first 50 miles or so.

I had Major intake leaks as i didn't change the gaskets. I applied RTV on the top of the Gasket and that solved the problem. Its super ugly but i didn't have to take off the manifold as all the leaks were on the top. Picture coming later.


Thats about it. If there is any addition information i left out Please Please Let me know and I will update this with credit to you. Or if i need to rewrite anything becuse i suck at spelling I'll fix that too.

If anybody attempts this Your welcome to ask me question I'll provide all the information i can to help you out.
 
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#215 ·
Valve Timing L3-VE (04-05) [06-09]
Intake cam duration 242° @ 0.003"
Intake cam opening (0°-25° BTDC) [-5°-25° BTDC]
Intake cam closing (62°-37° ABDC) [67°-37° ABDC]
Intake cam lobe height 42.44mm (1.671")
Intake cam base circle 33.34mm (1.313")
Intake valve lift 9.1mm (0.36")

Exhaust cam duration 227° @ 0.003"
Exhaust cam opening 42° BBDC
Exhaust cam closing 5° ATDC
Exhaust cam lobe height 41.18mm (1.622")
Exhaust cam base circle 33.38mm (1.314")
Exhaust valve lift 7.8mm (0.31")
Valve overlap (5°-30°, 0°-30° for MY06) [10°-30°]


Valve Timing L5-VE
Intake cam duration 242° @ 0.003"
Intake cam opening -5°-25° BTDC
Intake cam closing 67°-37° ABDC
Intake cam lobe height 42.44mm (1.671")
Intake cam base circle 33.34mm (1.313")
Intake valve lift 9.1mm (0.36")

Exhaust cam duration 227° @ 0.003"
Exhaust cam opening 42° BBDC
Exhaust cam closing 5° ATDC
Exhaust cam lobe height 41.18mm (1.622")
Exhaust cam base circle 33.38mm (1.314")
Exhaust valve lift 7.8mm (0.31")
Valve overlap 10°-30°
 
#221 · (Edited)
Okay, so, so far we have everybody using the 2.5 fuel systems except 2008milan. Thl's is an 04, bob's is an 05, mll's is an 05, antics is an 05. So from what I gather, bob is getting the timing code, mll's is rough at lower rpm's in high gears, and antics rpms hang too high. I don't recall Thl mentioning any major issues, but I do recall him ringing in with 50k on the new motor (5k? that seems like a lot of miles) "purring like a kitten".

So what is different with these swaps, since the ECMs are generally all from the same, oldest configuration... All sensors swapped? Timing covers? Timing confirmed? Only cog swapped, or cog+2.5 cam completely swapped? There's got to be reasons for all of this in the details... and really there are NOT that many details that can deviate from the common goal...
 
#227 ·
So finally had some time this afternoon to work on the car.
Took spark plugs out and they were all wet, cranked over the engine a couple of times to spit out the gas. Cleaned out the plugs, put it back in. Took a good while for the car to actually start. Took it for a 15mile run. Was running actually a little better than before. Idles perfectly, running good again with the exception of it bogging down still on high loads under 3k RPM.
So back to original setup of 2.5 fuel rail with 2.5 injectors.


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#228 ·
That is so strange. Clearly it isn't the injectors that the ECU is having problems with. Maybe a secondary problem (causality), but it's doing the same with the injectors it has always known. Wonder if somewhere, a sensor is bad, and the ECU just hasn't gotten to the "I've had it, throw the CEL" point yet.

Sounds like a job for a multimeter and a few hours of time, lol.
 
#229 · (Edited)
My car run like mils. Motor "lugs" under 3k heavy throttle. But i never noticed it since i drive like a maniac at a race track all the time. Always topping the rpm range. it wants to be reved high so i comply. I'm very hard on my cars and in the 2.8k-redline it purrs like a tiger. And yes ive put 50k on my car. I have done alot of traveling in the last few months heance my absence for a while.

My average higway mpg is a percise 32 and town is 24/26 ish. I mile every gas tank.

My guess is the lugging at lower rpm is a spark timing issue Not a fuel issue. As i understand it your timing retards/advaces with the rpms. This lugging feels like the spark is too retarded at low rpms cuasing early ignition and studdering and low power. Only way i know to fix it is, an ecu tune as the spark timing is adjusted by the ecu In modern cars. With an ecu tune you could adjust the timing curve to match the 2.5. It does have a different stroke length so it makes sense that the spark timing curve doesnt match the top dead center curve.
 
#231 · (Edited)
3rd gear above 40mph under 3k...haven't really tried above 3k since i just put in a new clutch so trying to break that in a little first.

also...just throwing this out there, but I did a quick search on google and found out that the 2.5 ecu goes for roughly $100-$130. my question is: we are using the 2.5 engine here with the 2.5 fuel injectors and 2.3 intake.
this ecu is obviously not optimal the way it stands...would the 2.5 ecu be a better option, and would it actualy work with our car, considering that engine part numbers are similar.
 
#232 ·
my 2.3 died on me last weekend. and I ordered up a 2.5 to try this swap myself. Sorry if i missed it but has anyone tried the 2.3 intake, 2.3 intake cam (04-05 cog w/ the cam sensor), 2.3 throttle body, 2.3 fuel rail, 2.3 injectors, and 2008Milans 2.5>2.3 Intake adapter combo yet?

I agree with thlillyrs last comment about the timing/spark issue about the extra displacement and the 2.3 ecu thinking what tdc should be is actually early detonation. Sounds logical anyways... But it also seems that everything is leading to an ecu tune in the end, or can the ecu retard itself enough to compensate for the extra displacement in the long run?
 
#236 ·
Tdc is set by the crankshaft position sensor, as long as the engine is timed correctly there shouldn't be a problem. The cylinders still fire at the same times relative to each other. The only difference is that the pistons travel farther between strokes so the only thing that changes is that you get higher piston speed for the same rpm.
 
#243 ·
... The only difference is that the pistons travel farther between strokes so the only thing that changes is that you get higher piston speed for the same rpm.
Ahh, that makes sense. Kinda like the inside of a wheel spinning slower than the outside. The longer stroke of the piston will always hit TDC, only at a faster pace. Thanks for the correction.

I did every combination possible
with the 2.5 engine with matching fuel rail and injectors the car runs, as i have described before
When I installed the 2.3 injectors with 2.3 fuel rail I reset the ECU. started the car and it was idling really rough! ... something that wasn't happening with the 2.5 injectors and fuel rail ... put the 2.5 fuel rail and injectors back on and car started, and idled perfectly. drove it 50 miles already and still runnig good besides the bogging in low rpms. my next step is to try and someone that can reflash my ecu and go from there.
Its weird that it would do that. Madmatt must be on to something with the 2.3 injectors spraying at a different angle or hitting the intake wall and not atomizing correctly.
The ECU should accommodate if more/less fuel is needed dependent on what the A/F ratio is read from the O2 sensor. Kinda like how the turbos dump fuel into the engine for higher RPMs but level itself out during idle right? So why isnt our ECUs reading that pig rich signal for you guys with bogging issues in lower rpms? Or is this a timing issue?

Anybody else running 2.3 injectors with different results?

Shot in the dark here too. But that Advanced Ignition timing mod (http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=237337) Says there, by adjusting the crank sensor bolt, that it helps the higher rpm power band but there was also room to adjust it back the other way. May be something? May be nothing? but it would be something I would tinker with if i had the engine infront of me
 
#234 · (Edited)
Thats what i heard too. The newer ecusuposedly wont work with anything in our cars. No speedos abs auto lock etc.

Mazdat02 if your vehicle is 06+ dont swap camms. O4-05 swap cams. U have to use the 2.3 intake otherwise the ecu will get very angry at you. U can use the 2.3 injectors fuel rail but it shouldnt make a difference. The ecu seems to be able to compensate as its a very small if any difference in fuel flow. U have to use the 2.3 throttle body Again to keep the ecu happy. As it is the ecu is feeding fuel air mixture ideal for a 2.32.3 into a2.5. So It can adjust a little to get a clean burn and run smooth and properly but theres alot of room for improvment performance wise. The bigger engine can handle larger volumes of air and fuel than the 2.3 so without 2.5 fuel maps were underfeeding our bigger hungreier engine. really were probably only losing horse power with the 2.3 maps

The intake adapter provides a good seal for the 2.3 intake and helps align the holes better. it can be substituted with some rtv liquid gasket Though its unknown if the slight missalignment has any impact on performance.

As it stands a most of the parts that are swapped for ecu compatability. Its looking for sensor reading from cerrain part and if those sensors are different or the sensor is swapped in a different part it will get bad reading throw codes and have a tantrum.

If the ecu could be taught a new part or sensor the u could use any part that fits but u probably need to be an engineer to do that.
 
#242 ·
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#244 · (Edited)
That could be a good tip. Maybe some retarding would help, albeit at the expense of top end.... Maybe there's a happy medium until an ECU tune.

That being said, I am always 400% better at troubleshooting and such when I have it in front of me. In the next few days, I should have my engine, and be working on switching things around. As long as people stay on top of this thread so I don't have to wait a few days between putting our heads together, I can try different things.
 
#246 ·
Looks like you and me are gonna be doing the swap at the same time there Zoomtic. Mines on a truck from Quebec scheduled to be delivered to my anxious hands next week sometime. I see that you're in Washington, maybe if we can get enough people luring over this thread in the same area, maybe we can get dynotronics to come to us for the tune
 
#248 ·
Let me see if I can shed a little light on the issues you guys are having;

First, the 2.5 is of the same family as the 2.3/2.0/1.8, we all know this. However the engine dynamics are completely different one to the other, as are the fueling, advance, and commanded torque parameters( which is whats causing the issue for you guys)

So here is whats going on; the engine tuning on these cars is based solely on the amount of airflow going through the engine. This in relation to the engine speed gives the ECU the load( or in effect the amount of work the engine is doing).

This load is used to determine the output of almost all of the ECU outputs. so if you change one of the two (air flow, or engine size) you have just screwed up the output that the engine needs to run properly.

Now there are a few other issues, such as injector size, which can be several depending on year,region, and emissions.

Is there a spray pattern difference between the 2.3 and 2.5? Yes, but it has zero to do with valve spacing( good guess) and more to do with the piston crown type. Use the 2.5 injectors.

Can you run un retuned, sure, it works fine for more than a few folks, but the engine will be out of "balance" so to speak.

Hope that answers some of your questions?

BTW, its not that we don't want to share info with you guys, we are simply SWAMPED, as this is the busy season for us. I will try to visit and answer stuff if you need us to
 
#249 ·
Let me see if I can shed a little light on the issues you guys are having;



First, the 2.5 is of the same family as the 2.3/2.0/1.8, we all know this. However the engine dynamics are completely different one to the other, as are the fueling, advance, and commanded torque parameters( which is whats causing the issue for you guys)



So here is whats going on; the engine tuning on these cars is based solely on the amount of airflow going through the engine. This in relation to the engine speed gives the ECU the load( or in effect the amount of work the engine is doing).



This load is used to determine the output of almost all of the ECU outputs. so if you change one of the two (air flow, or engine size) you have just screwed up the output that the engine needs to run properly.



Now there are a few other issues, such as injector size, which can be several depending on year,region, and emissions.



Is there a spray pattern difference between the 2.3 and 2.5? Yes, but it has zero to do with valve spacing( good guess) and more to do with the piston crown type. Use the 2.5 injectors.



Can you run un retuned, sure, it works fine for more than a few folks, but the engine will be out of "balance" so to speak.



Hope that answers some of your questions?



BTW, its not that we don't want to share info with you guys, we are simply SWAMPED, as this is the busy season for us. I will try to visit and answer stuff if you need us to

So, how much are we looking in damage to get our ecu reflahsed and what is the turn around time? I've called so many shops around my area and they say they'll only do speed3 and speed6



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#253 ·
Swirl caused by changes in the port itself effecting injector spray, yes. Swirl caused by the piston in the combustion chamber effecting injector spray, not a chance unless you are talking about direct injection. The fuel air mixture is already mixed by the time it enters the combustion chamber. Changes in the combustion chamber can better mix the fuel air mixture as it comes in but it won't cause it to un-mix and flood out the motor.

On top of that I just looked up both pistons and they are almost identical! The 2.5 appears to have more dish.

2.3 Pic taken from http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Piston-Set-DNJ-P435-/181677777089?fits=Make%3AMazda|Model%3A3


2.5L Pic taken from http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=386437
 
#255 · (Edited)
Any of you guys have a link or a cheat cheat for all the torque specs for the 2.5?

- Edit -

did some digging, found a spec sheet for the 2.3 (http://mymazda3.info/turbo/info/mazda torque specs.txt) Seeing as there arent much vairances between engines, will these 2.3 specs work for the 2.5?

also some more data round post #8 (http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=391435)

1st Gen Service Manual
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?b5ezxwyd1jbapg6
2nd Gen Service Manual
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6V8HQB-v25DdlU0em5uR19rNkk/edit?pli=1

and a couple more resources

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=273242

Or this GOLD mine!!!
http://www.mazdabg.com/ftp-uploads/Mazda/3/

Hit the parent directory after.. Wish i found this when i had my Protege back in the day
 
#256 ·
you are on the right track, but the wrong train.

As yourself a question; why would the 2.5( which is .3 liters larger) have a completely different injector than the 2.3 if they have the same requirements for fuel, spray pattern, latency, etc?

And yes, the 2.5 piston does have more dish, but also more quench.

Can you run the 2.3 injectors in a 2.5? Yes, I already said that. But you are going to HAVE to calibrate for the difference in the design. It can be done, but its easier to simply use the injectors that the combustion chamber was designed around.
 
#259 · (Edited)
As yourself a question; why would the 2.5( which is .3 liters larger) have a completely different injector than the 2.3 if they have the same requirements for fuel, spray pattern, latency, etc?
Um, they are different. A larger engine with a higher power output generally needs more fuel so a larger injector is needed. If everything is so different then why does one member have no issues running the 2.3 injectors in his 2.5 but another does? I have shopped for injectors before and never once was latency listed. If its so important then why isn't it listed?

You also haven't provided any pictures or documentation to explain what you are saying.
 
#262 · (Edited)
Okay, well, now that that's out of the way...

I am actually curious about DT's tuning for this motor, or more specifically not just for the 2.5, but for this 2.3/2.5 hybrid setup. I am guessing it is a bit different from say, the Mazda factory 2.5's, since there are a few "foreign" 2.3 parts that affect the running of the engine.

1. What array of parts do you already have compilations of data for? There seems to be a few different setups that people are running, for example, the 2 sets of possible injectors, 90% of the intake side of the engine, and the 2 cam possibilities also come to mind, that have slightly different durations I believe, from 04-05. I know you've said you've swapped plenty of 2.5's into these cars, but I would imagine "small" discrepancies can make a big difference, and I was wondering about how many variations of tuning you have in your "catalog" for this type of swap when you would have nothing more than the ECU, so data logging must already be complete.

2. If the rough running engine problem people are having actually has to do with the longer stroke messing up the ignition timing, do you have a before and after comparison of ignition timing maps that would be visually useful to someone that doesn't know what they're looking at necessarily? (ie. a dyno sheet vs C++ programming strings) This is me just being curious.
 
#263 · (Edited)
Mll and thillyr, have you tried running high octane gasoline? This guy is having a problem with his knock sensor retarding the timing so much that the engine bogs out under 3000 if he gives it high throttle. He's not using the 2.5, but it still sounds like it's worth investigating.

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=670826
 
#264 ·
...And, after reading into all that, no one should have any issue believing that DT knows what they are talking about. The DT rep posting on the chats and responses to issues with a knowledge of not only what is being talked about, but also the usual parameters, and what SHOULD be expected. They also report what IS possible, with the user that's having problems working through the problems with DT and troubleshooting - which indirectly confirms actual knowledge of the situation and products.

Anybody that can do that, should be recognized as someone that knows wtf is going on. All of you doubters, stop. You clearly got your information from a source that is biased or idiotic. They know their shit.
 
#267 ·
Big huge misunderstanding, apparently I bid on an automatic transmission rather than a motor for that lower price, unwittingly thinking I was still in the Complete Engines section.... oops.

So anyway, talked to them Friday, and already committed to buy the original motor now that the trans auction has been cancelled and refunded, lol. Just waiting for funds to come back to the bank (doh!) and I'll pay and drive the 20 minutes to pick it up this week....:smile:

Already got my hoist and a working torque wrench, got the EM unhooked, a bunch of the wiring harness, going to get the IM out today and make space to start pulling it out, unhook the drivers' side axle... oil pan is already off from initial inspection.... getting to the messy part where there's shit everywhere lol
 
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