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2014 3i for STF

10K views 39 replies 11 participants last post by  mazda3az 
#1 · (Edited)
Figured I'd start a thread for the folks that are working on a 2014 for Street Class. (edit---now STF)

What I know so far:

1) Wheels and Tires options are the same as the earlier cars. The only oddity there is the factory tire size is 205/60R16, not 205/55...and second gear tops out at about 63ish. So...gearing is shorter than earlier 3s. That would tend to lean the choice towards 225/50R16 rather than the 225/45R16 for big courses.

2) Struts/Shocks have not been developed yet. I've emailed Lee at Koni some images of the struts so he's aware they are different than the earlier cars.

3) The front lower strut mount is more like a Subaru/VW/Dodge with two bolts per strut bottom. There are no "camber" bolts yet available from Mazda. I am getting an alignment this weekend to see what kind of front camber I can get.

4) There's a rear bar available from Corksport. They are, in theory, working on a front as well.

Um. What else. It's got steel doors so your magnets stick to it? :chuckles:

Per
 
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#2 ·
It'd be nice to know how much caster you can wring out of the stock suspension pickup points, for weighing the steering and camber gain in corners.

Do not believe you can slot the upper strut mount points for additional camber (I never ran in stock class) but if there's any play at all it'd be in your best interest to loosen the bolts and shove the top of the strut in towards the engine bay as much as possible before that alignment.

CG Lock would probably help keep you glued in the seat. Also, if you have ANY issues with pedal height (for heel-toeing) I'd see what tweaking you can do to get the office in order.

Stock class isn't my forte honestly. I never raced in it, am not 100% sure what can and can't be changed, and the rules have all changed since the last time I autocrossed (over 5 years ago.)
 
#3 ·
Uh new cars have a BUTTTON of caster from the factory, more than any other FWD car. You'll be good there.

The cheapo CG lock is the metal piece that you can get for baby seats that does the same thing less fancy-like for $3

Get a pyrometer and record 3 tire temps (outer, center, inner) for each tire after each run- will give you the best idea on how much camber you need and how to change inflation.

Grease pen or chalk for a sidewall to tread mark to measure sidewall rollover.

Have fun!
 
#4 · (Edited)
Figured I'd start a thread for the folks that are working on a 2014 for Street Class.

What I know so far:

1) Wheels and Tires options are the same as the earlier cars. The only oddity there is the factory tire size is 205/60R16, not 205/55...and second gear tops out at about 63ish. So...gearing is shorter than earlier 3s. That would tend to lean the choice towards 225/50R16 rather than the 225/45R16 for big courses.

2) Struts/Shocks have not been developed yet. I've emailed Lee at Koni some images of the struts so he's aware they are different than the earlier cars.

3) The front lower strut mount is more like a Subaru/VW/Dodge with two bolts per strut bottom. There are no "camber" bolts yet available from Mazda. I am getting an alignment this weekend to see what kind of front camber I can get.

4) There's a rear bar available from Corksport. They are, in theory, working on a front as well.

Um. What else. It's got steel doors so your magnets stick to it? :chuckles:

Per
I have a 2014 i-sport hatch as my daily so I'm interested in following along on your thread.

As far as wheels/tires go, you have the +1/-1 rule so I would definitely be taking advantage of it and not sticking around on the 16x6.5" wheels. I would go down to a 15x6.5" wheel and use 205/50/15 tires. Compared to 225/50/16 you'd save yourself a lot of rotating weight in both the tire and wheel and also get better gearing (60+ mph is still too tall for an H-Street car on an average AX course), lower the car a full inch, and get better steering feel and a better fit tire wise. A 225/50/16 street tire on a 6.5" wheel leaves a lot to be desired in many ways and not ideal. I have been there, done that many many times. A 225/45/16 is no better in this case and would ideally be on at least an inch wider rim than 6.5." You are trying to shove too much street tire on too narrow of a rim.
 
#5 ·
Yep, all good points, although I'm not a fan of running out of second gear on bigger courses. The drop from a 205/60R16 to a 225/50R16 should bring the real top of second down to an indicated 61...haven't had a GPS in the car to see how accurate that is. Might try the 225/45R16, but 15s would short, IMO.

My last ride was a B-Modified LeGrand that would push mid 70s in second....
 
#6 · (Edited)
Well, it's certainly your decision to make but most top national level guys on street tires would unanimously agree that a 225/50 or 225/45 is too much tire for a 6.5" wide wheel and a 205 would perform better regardless if you go 15" or 16" diameter.

Lightweight 16x6.5" wheels for our cars are few and none are real light (around 15 lbs each). A somewhat affordable 16x6.5 with a 225/50/16 tire is going to weigh around 38 lbs each. A somewhat affordable 15x6.5" wheel with a 205/50/15 tire is going to weigh around 30 lbs each. 8 lbs x 4 = 32 lbs of unsprung weight off the car which is significant.

205/50/15 tires would give the 2014 3i a top speed in 2nd gear of around 56-57 mph. That would be nearly spot on for average sized courses, but I agree a little short for the big courses. You may have been a little spoiled by the Legrand in the power to weight dept ;) HS cars don't get in a big hurry when you push on down the skinny pedal and have difficulty breaking 60 mph most of the time. Due to gearing advantage and drop in rotating weight, the car would feel like it has an extra 15-20 hp/tq on the 15's which would be very welcome because the 2.0L engine is definitely still a little anemic in the low to mid rpm range compared to the 2.3L and 2.5L which someone wouldn't know just by looking at peak numbers on paper. On 25" tall tires the car is going to feel like a dog on any kind of slow sections or dig outs. Ideally, a short setup and long setup would probably be best since the rev limiter can't be increased in stock/street. If I had to pick one, I'd say the short setup would be the better setup in "most" situations IMO, but personal preference probably plays a role. I'd rather hit the rev limiter a little than have the car fall on it's face exiting a slow/tight corner. When it comes down to it think the short setup is going to keep the car in the "best" part of the power band more often on most courses.
 
#7 ·
Yea, might be a little spoiled. :lol: Anyway, yea, these early 3 wheels I have are about 14.5 pounds. The Hankook RS3s that were on them were free, so what the heck. I'll try them. If they don't work, I'll try something else.

Before BMod, I ran H and G for years--so have some speed maintenance skills I need to reacquaint myself with. Heck, I need to get back into the swing of autocrossing all together. 2013 was the first Nats I've missed in 17 years.
 
#8 ·
Yea, might be a little spoiled. :lol: Anyway, yea, these early 3 wheels I have are about 14.5 pounds. The Hankook RS3s that were on them were free, so what the heck. I'll try them. If they don't work, I'll try something else.
10-4, if you already got the setup try it and see what happens. Report back.

Before BMod, I ran H and G for years--so have some speed maintenance skills I need to reacquaint myself with. Heck, I need to get back into the swing of autocrossing all together. 2013 was the first Nats I've missed in 17 years.
Oh wow, well I bet we know a lot of the same people. I didn't know Tommy real well, but was shocked and very sorry to hear what happened. He was a great champion and also from what I hear a great person.
 
#10 ·
Hey Paul...Yep. 1997 was a good year for HS..tough battle. Dropped from second to third on the second day at Nats, still good for 18th on index out of 1000 drivers. Didn't do that well again until 2011 with another 3rd place trophy in BMod.

There aren't many Pers that autocross, so I figured it would be somewhat obvious to other autocrossers.

Got the 2014 aligned. It's got about .7 of negative camber, but 6.3 degrees of caster (double of the earlier cars). I set the toes at zero so I can easily adjust from there.

Per Schroeder
 
#11 · (Edited)
Well, that was fun! Did the Wilmington Match Tour this weekend. Car felt better than I expected on some old Hankook RS3s (225/50R16). Finished a little over a second behind Tim Carritte (2nd at HS last year at Nats) and .7 behind Jack Burns (2nd in RTF last year). That's on a 70-second course that had lots of high speed transitions--something I would say is a MINI forte. I'm fairly pleased with the result, as I haven't autocrossed in 19 months and from the first run things felt good.

What I learned:

Adam was right, car doesn't get to the top of second with the 225/50R16 tires, even on a fast course. Need to at least try the 225/45R16 Z11s

The car weighs 2740 or less in current autocross trim (1/3 tank gas)

Old Hankook RS3s don't like 50 degree weather.

The car does not push in low speed stuff, but does feel sloppy in transitions. Needs real shocks.

Per
 
#12 ·
The car weighs 2740 or less in current autocross trim (1/3 tank gas)

Old Hankook RS3s don't like 50 degree weather.

The car does not push in low speed stuff, but does feel sloppy in transitions. Needs real shocks.

Per
Interesting - weight is pretty close to what my car weighs in autox trim. Thank you Mazda for avoiding the bloating that you see from other manufacturers.


Per - are you planning on Devens this year?

PZ
 
#14 · (Edited)
I'm going to give my 2014 i-hatch a whirl in H Street this weekend at the Chicago region event. I got the blue STF car up on jack stands doing some exhaust work so that gives me a good excuse to go have some fun with the new car.

Only modification to the 2014 is a Corksport RSB and 16x6.5" Rota Boost wheels mated to 215/45/16 Kumho XS tires I had laying around. I'll post results in the results thread.

Per, any word on front camber bolts for the 2014+ cars yet?
 
#17 · (Edited)
Interesting to see how you like running it tomorrow Adam.

I am done racing this year and going to be trading in the WRX for a different car and the 3i Touring is one of a few I am considering. I want to bring back that Mazda magic I had from 2011-2012!

PS - Adam, I saw you posting about 15's and 16's. Are the Kosei's TireRack lists at 12-13lbs not an option? When I select the 2014 5-door I Touring on their site, it is the lightest 16inch option. I also did not think 15's fit over 2014 brakes.

Sam Karp
 
#18 · (Edited)
Hey Sam! We'll see how things go in Chicago, I did a small college parking lot event already in the 2014 i and wasn't very impressed. Yeah, the Kosei 16x6.5" KR4 would be a good option and they are feathery at 12.4 lbs, for one reason or another they did not pop up on my radar when shopping HS wheels a few years back. Good 16" tire options are kind of limited though. The best option I see right now for a 16x6.5" fitment would be the 205/45/16 RS3 version 2. I think 225 anything is just too tall, too heavy, and too wide for this application. 205/50/16 is "ok," (little tall depending on the course and a little heavy) and you only have one good tire in that size (Direzza Z2).

Personally, I'd probably go with 15x6.5" wheels. A lot more tire options in the 205/50/15 size and good tire weight, height, and fitment on that size wheel. 15's fit on the 2004-2009 2.3L big brake cars that have 11.8" rotors (many of us are running 15's in STF) so fitting 15's on the 2014 i models with 11.0" rotors should be no problem as long as the calipers are roughly the same which they appear to be.

I would proceed carefully in this direction Sam. I can't see a very promising future for the Mazda3 in H-Street. The JCW Mini is just so much more composed and an overall better car for the class. I had the pleasure of autocrossing one recently that was fully prepped for H-street and there is just no comparison. The Mini is even better than ever this year with +1/-1. The car I drove had 16x7" wheels (as opposed to 17x7 available previously which was too big/heavy). The Mazda3 is just a bigger (wheelbase now stretched to 106"), heavier, and more softly sprung car still riding on 6.5" wheels. The Mini makes the 2014 Mazda3 feel like a soft limo. 2.0L Skyactiv motor also feels weaker than the old 2.3L car and acceleration tests show it to be slower. You don't really even have the power card in play as the new 3i is barely quicker than a Mini in a straight line.

The only appealing H-street Mazda3 in my opinion would be the 2.5L with a stick and camber bolts (if available, legal, ect). Might have a chance against the Mini on point and shoot power courses then. Mazda doesn't even make this car yet, or the camber bolts.

Reason #2 to tread lightly is H-street is on the respirator nationally and the SCCA very well might might combine it with G Street as you know. So you could have a "decent" H-Street car in the immediate future, but a horrible G-street car in the years to come. Only way I could see this coming out well for the Mazda would be the SCCA keeping H-street around, but moving the Mini up to G street. It seems the SCCA is more interested in the former option rather than the latter so things aren't looking good there.

How about coming to STF instead? The land of even tire wear and a nice variety of competitive cars ;)
 
#19 ·
I'll go ahead and leave the Chicago results here since it's relevant to the topic. Did a little "experiment" today. Chicago does a split heat format so you get 3 runs in the morning and 2-3 runs in the afternoon. Similar course and weather conditions all day and I was driving in the H-street class. I took my morning runs in the 2014 Mazda3, then did my last two runs in the afternoon in a 2013 JCW Mini. I went 1.2 seconds faster in the Mini (surprise surprise).

Here is my summary and own personal opinion on this whole topic. Want a good H-street car? Buy a 2014 Mazda 3i. Want a great H-street car? Buy a JCW Mini Cooper.


Chicago class results
http://scca-chicago.com/wp-content/uploads/event-3-fin.htm

Chicago Pax results
http://scca-chicago.com/wp-content/uploads/event-3-pax.htm
 
#23 · (Edited)
Good blog Per, thanks for sharing. I'll check in from time to time to see how things progress. Be sure to update after you put the new front bar in or any other changes.

I hope to eventually see you in STF (and I think we will ;) ). Even many of the Mini guys are moving on from HS because the Fiesta ST is just too much of a powerhouse. I'd be surprised if Tim C stays in HS with the Mini. Also on local events where we tend to race against others on pax, you got an uphill battle in HS because your index in the future will be based on a smaller car with 50 more hp and 50 more ft/lbs of torque. Either way, best of luck this season and hope to see your Mazda3 out there. :)
 
#24 ·
Yep, you'll see me in STF.

16x7.5 wheels on the way….
225/45R16 R1Rs in my garage
Racing Beat bars on the way…
Trying to work out spring/shock package now.

Bear in mind that this car sees 100 miles a day of Cleveland, Ohio roads, year round…so it's going to be mild-ish.
 
#27 ·
Updated the title to reflect STF class.

Awaiting camber plates now. Have rear bar installed…will be installing larger front bar shortly. I've done the testing on a bunch of MacStrut cars and unless you go stupid on the spring rates, larger front bars actually help reduce understeer. For example: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/roll-with-it/

more updates shortly.
 
#28 ·
If using a spring/shock package, how much gain do you anticipate with the camber plates?

I'm desperately after some camber myself, so thinking of adding a bigger front bar to keep what camber I have and then either going plates or slotting the tops...just not sure how much I can gain with a full-size spring. I know you also get to work with the more raked strut with bottom bolts. grr!
 
#30 ·
I'm desperately after some camber myself, so thinking of adding a bigger front bar to keep what camber I have and then either going plates or slotting the tops...
Increasing the front bar will increase understeer, so you might want to adjust the rest of the car to keep the balance as you like. I think the saying is something like one happy tire is better than two unhappy tires, so people with miatas and BMWs (really any RWD car) run a stiffer front bar and may even lift a front wheel through a turn. Sadly with our cars, if we lift a wheel we aren't putting any power down so be mindful of this. I'd be interested to see how the car performs with a stiffer front bar as compared to increased spring rate. I don't know if any STFers on here have tried that route; Adam actually went smaller IIRC.
 
#31 · (Edited)
As I said, I don't agree with the generalization that big front bars necessarily cause understeer, but lack of wheel rate and resulting camber change certainly do. I linked to the GRM article I wrote which explains some of this. The fast FWD strut-based autocross cars, going way back into the 1980s have mostly used big front bars to go faster…from the Tunnells in their Jettas to Daddio and his Neons (including when he went to DSP and SMF)

It may *feel* slower because you don't have that ZOMG! OVERSTEER! feeling, but it does work.

Per
 
#32 ·
DSP and SMF probably had LDSs though? (though with certain versions of this...yes once one is in the air, it's essentially open)

The big front bar was just a musing for me (and I already have the part- so it's just experimentation labor and battling New England winter bolts). I'm also on soft OEM springs (and maybe Racing Beat).

I have no idea how Adam does it with the big rear bar and an undersized front bar. I've always been a fan of a bigger rear bar on street 3s, and I liked what my JBR bar did during auto-x runs...but it's plenty tail happy for me just on soft. I can't begin to imagine the hotchkis on max stiff + undersized front. I guess the individual spring rates really work with the bars to keep all 4 corners drivable. With other things like camber plates I guess you can get away with a thinner bar and still keep the outside tire with a happy patch.

Anyway I don't want to threadjack, but I'm eager to see how the camber plates work out with a spring/shock combo. If it works well, I'll be adopting it myself. :)
 
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