Mazda3 Forums banner

2.3 MTX Hatch Dyno Dynamics 3rd Gear Pulls - Updated 12/16/07

25K views 94 replies 30 participants last post by  xxxxxxxxxxlc 
#1 ·
Dyno Session I - 9/9/2006
Stock Baseline

So before I start doing heavy modifications to the car I wanted to go ahead and get my first (near) base dyno done. Lucky me there is a load dyno here right here in Tampa (http://www.ellisautoworkZ.com) that also probably has the best price in town for 3 pulls. The tech I meet up with was Bryant Tonkin who was real cool guy and very willing to make sure I was happy with the runs. The great thing about the load dynos like the dyno dynamic systems are that they are more accurate than say jet dynos which are more prevalent. I've heard/read that jet dynos read anywhere from 10-15% higher which seemed kind of high to me but after seeing my results I think that 10% is probably dead on. BTW does any know of a good place to get a vacuum reading? Bryant tried searching for one for a few moments but didn't find one. Anyways here are the pics, some vids, and the results. Enjoy!


Only performance mods are the Buddy Club Condenser and AIT mod. Tires have about 32psi in them (nitrogen). Less than 11,000 miles. ~90 degree weather.









Vids...

http://www.groovesubstation.com/personal/lolita/2006-09-9_dyno/Dyno%20008.wmv
http://www.groovesubstation.com/personal/lolita/2006-09-9_dyno/Dyno%20010.wmv


Graphs...






Final results are ~126whp, and ~123tq so that would probably read about ~138.6whp and ~135.3tq on a dyno jet so overall I'm really happy with the results as they seem to right on par with what we should be seeing and the numbers were very consistent. What really makes me happy is that we are able to get a look at the low-end numbers, something which we really don't have a lot of info on as many people start at 2500 or higher on their graphs. As a side note, the first actual run we did was in 4th gear :)dur: I totally forgot to make that clear to Bryant but he soon enough found out why!) and we were able to pull a max hp of 123whp before the car cut the fuel. Figure someone might find that interested/useful to know. :)

I also wanted to test 87 vs. 89 octane fuel since I’ve done the AIT mod and Bean is the only one I believe who has actually tried to test if there is any gain to be had by upping the octane with the advanced timings. However Beans car was moderately modified so I figured that perhaps it may not have the same effect on a more stock vehicle. I did my best to keep my tank low prior to the dyno so that way after I had gotten two good pulls I could put in the 89 and do a run to see if there was any gain. Unfortunately I probably still had over 2 gallons left in the tank, and I only brought a little over 4 gallons of 89 with me so its not exactly the best test since the 89 would obviously be diluted to a rather significant amount. There was a .5hp increase in the max whp of the pulls but that could be accounted by just variance in the dyno or the car itself. Next time I'll probably bring 93 oct fuel so that way if there still a few gallons of 87 left it won't be so diluted and we could more easily see if there’s a real gain or not. Anyways I'm definitely looking forward to being a repeat customer at Ellis AutoworkZ and recommend them to others in the area (especially you Wiz since I think we need to have a dyno shootout :p ). My next dyno I plan on actually verifying (fuck theories, lets see numbers!) what the removal of the stock intake resonator does when I finally get my intake in. :cheers:

Oh yes and it’s conclusive…

:tgm3:

Continue to...
Dyno Session II - http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=56566.msg1006391#msg1006391
Dyno Session III - http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=56566.msg1007997#msg1007997
Dyno Session I-III Summary - http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=56566.msg1018734#msg1018734
Dyno Session IV - 4-1 Header http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=56566.msg1062808#msg1062808
Dyno Session V - BSD kit http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=56566.msg1264096#msg1264096
Dyno Session VI - Larger TB http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=56566.msg1587196#msg1587196
Dyno Session VII - Engine Temp http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=56566.msg1924891#msg1924891
 
See less See more
5
#2 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

cool, that's a really smooth powerband.   I wonder why ;)  How is this dyno different from dynojets, doesn't the fact that the car is at an angle like that actually lower the readings?
 
#3 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

[quote author=thebeansoldier link=topic=56566.msg943963#msg943963 date=1157950688]
cool, that's a really smooth powerband.   I wonder why ;)  How is this dyno different from dynojets, doesn't the fact that the car is at an angle like that actually lower the readings?
[/quote]

lnertia dynos like jet dynos uses the known mass of the heavy rollers as the resistance to the wheels and calculate that it takes X amount of power to rotate the rollers at Y speed and a computer calculates from there. Load/brake dynos on the other hand are connected to some form of brake sytem (usually water or some sort of electrical resistance) to resist the turning of the rollers. As the wheels turn the rollers, a sensor measures how much power is being held by the braking system which correlates to how much power the car is putting to the wheels. As far as I know I don't think the angle would make a difference.
 
#5 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

[quote author=MZ3SP link=topic=56566.msg956310#msg956310 date=1158414468]
Thank for the info lc. How long did it take to do the 3 pulls? I might be interested in checking it out some weekend.
[/quote]

With everything we did about a hour.
 
#10 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

[quote author=eurotuner link=topic=56566.msg958325#msg958325 date=1158533885]
ur F2?
[/quote]

no I sold it. Meant to get a K&N but I messed up and accidentally got an Injen but I think I'm going to just stick with it.
 
#12 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

[quote author=eurotuner link=topic=56566.msg959163#msg959163 date=1158578539]
why the hell would u sell a F2 to get an injen!
[/quote]

location location location! I'll explain later if you wish. You can't razz me, do you have anything other than a damn sharkfin? :p Oh and the dyno got moved up to tomorrow morning so I should be able to update this thread tomorrow evening sometime. So excited! :klavergreg:
 
#13 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

[quote author=lc link=topic=56566.msg960909#msg960909 date=1158618829]
[quote author=eurotuner link=topic=56566.msg959163#msg959163 date=1158578539]
why the hell would u sell a F2 to get an injen!
[/quote]

location location location! I'll explain later if you wish. [glow=red,2,300]You can't razz me, do you have anything other than a damn sharkfin? [/glow] :p Oh and the dyno got moved up to tomorrow morning so I should be able to update this thread tomorrow evening sometime. So excited!  :klavergreg:
[/quote]


:smokin:
 
#14 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

Dyno Session II - 9/19/2006



Sorry for the delay guys, I haven't had the time to sit down and do a decent write up and didn't want to give anything less. I went back on the 19th to test a few different things, like running with the stock resonator removed, running a "SRI", and using 93 octane. I removed the resonator about 2/3 days prior to the dyno. The intake used was an Injen CAI – we had a little problem that prevented us from installing the full system, but I was able to retrofit it as a makeshift "SRI" (That's right, I said it- the Injen intake CAN be converted to a "SRI" if you have a MTX but I would not recommend it as you'll see) . The whole session took a bit longer than it should have, but Bryant at AutoworkZ was pretty patience about it. I was also able to hook up my ODBII scanning software as well so that I could monitor the cars sensors as we did the runs to try and get a better idea of what was going on and try and keep things consistent. Also keep in mind we didn't just make a change and do one pull - we performed multiple pulls (at least 20) to get the best numbers from each setup so get over it.

Oh and the temperature was 80 F, with 32 PSI in the tires, 12,000 miles, these are my opinions, blah blah


Stock Intake Resonator Removal

There has been a lot of talk about what the function of the stock intake resonator really is. Some say it was purely to suppress engine/intake noise, while others said that it helped low-end torque. As far as I knew there were no real numbers to prove anything either way so I figured I give it a try, especially since we were able to pull numbers below 2K. I mean look at the thing, it's hideous! What the hell could this chuck of plastic really do?





I was a bit surprised at the results. Not only did we see a loss in low-end torque as many predicted (actually below about 1360 there's a HUGE drop in torque and whp, but we hardly care about that low of a RPM range for racing applications) but we actually saw a loss in peak whp as well (about 123 vs 126 stock)! The reason for this is pretty simple though. While you are removing some airflow restrictions, you're also pulling much hotter air as verified by the IAT sensor readings I took during the session. If you take a look at how the stock intake is setup, it actually pulls cool air from behind the headlights where other CAIs sit. If you look at the right side of the lower grill, there's small air deflector which defects the cooler outside air towards this area, hence why our cars are perfectly setup for CAIs. There is no performance benefit to be made from just removing the stock resonator and keeping the stock intake – simple as that. It just sounds cooler. Now get over it. :)


Injen "SRI"



Next up was to test the performance of a CAI. Although there are plenty of other CAI dynos, most don't have any numbers from 2.5k or lower and I was anxious to compare stock low-end torque figures with stock minus resonator vs. a CAI system. When I went to install the intake at the shop that day I ran into a small problem (my fault actually) and since I played around with the idea of running an SRI I decided to see if I could make it work. Sure enough it could! There were some problems. You've got to angle it a bit (don't think it would be possible with an ATX but I could be wrong), and the Injen intake is 3 inches wide at the beginning so the filter inlet is 3 inches wide, but the Injen intake reduces to 2.75 diameter between the two halfs so I had to tighten the clamp on the filter a lot to make it work but it did. Here's the pic to prove it!


From above…


Notice how close the filter sits to the engine…


From below…



So how does the makeshift "SRI" perform? Well better than without the resonator for sure, but not better than stock. The best we could pull was 126whp which was better than without the resonator (remember 123whp), but not better than stock (again 126whp), plus there is still the low-end loss over stock. In fact the ODBII software shows that it draws much warmer air than even the stock intake with the resonator removed! If you look the pictures, the reason is probably due to the filters large size and location (so the inlet area is closer to the engine than the inlet for the resonator-less stock intake). So why the small gain over the removing the resonator? Simple – it's a more effective sucking (in a good way :wink:) design. I was lucky enough to be able to take some manifold vacuum pressurereadings. The numbers showed without a doubt that the Injen in "SRI" mode raises the pressure up to +.01-0.15 PSI extra almost thoughout the whole RPM range. My guess is this is where the gain is coming from cause there sure as hell isn't any ramming going on or cooler air being pulled. Now with these results I would definitely say that using the Injen or even K&N as a "SRI" is not worth it, however since there is room for improvement as far as temperature goes, I can't see why the Umnitzawouldn't be worth a look. However I doubt any "SRI" for our Mazda 3 will give more performance than a CAI. Like I said earlier, CAIs have optimum placement in our vehicles, plus are cheaper. Worried about hydrolock? Get a pre-fiter, or a splash guard, or get the Injen intake which sits higher than other CAIs close to where the stock intake does anyway and problem pretty much solved. Next!


Advanced Timing + 93 octane fuel

Alright so now we are down to the last test for this session - the advanced ignition timing mod plus higher octane round II. I can't think of many more subjects on the forum with more confusion, opinions, and misinformation than this mod. While some of us have claimed possible gains with running 89 instead of 87, some users have reported that they felt this mod would take advantage of 93 octane.! Considering last time I tried to test these claims it was with some deluded 89, I decided to take it to the extreme with trying to dyno using 93. Though still slightly deluded from left over gasoline like before, the averaged octane rating would be much higher than the previous test and if this didn't show any gain then 93 sure as hell shouldn't either. Anyways with the tank running low on 87 (around 2 gallons), I added about 4.5 gallons of 93 octane fuel (which means that this should represent an average of 91 I think). After a few test pulls and letting the engine warm up to its normal operating temperature the results were pretty straight forward in my mind – running 91+ octane in a lightly modded NA car results in less power! Its simple physics folks! The higher the octane rating the harder it is to ignite the fuel mixture in the cylinders. The timing isn't advanced enough (without maybe boring the slots out more) to make a complete burn of the fuel and so you're not getting the full "explosion" of the fuel if you will. Not only was there at least decrease in 1-2 whp throughout the powerband, but there even more loss in torque at the low end (-6 or more in some spots). Remember we didn't just put the fuel in and do one run and call it a day – that was the best run out of multiple we did using the 93 alone. Think your car runs smoother with 93? That's probably because its got less power than it did before! I realize this isn't the last word on the subject (hell I have at least 1 more I know I want to try) but stop wasting your money on 91/93 octane fuel people – you're just making your wallet lighter and car slower!!!

Anyway that's it for now. More to come, but meanwhile, here are the numbers/graphs I'm sure you're wanting to see…


Graphs

Red - Resonstator removed
Blue - Injen "SRI" mode
Green - Injen "SRI" mode + 93 (91) oct

A/F Ratio


Torque...


PSI readings



8)

Continue to...
Dyno Session III - http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=56566.msg1007997#msg1007997
 
#15 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

This is one of the coolest write ups I've seen in awhile. I glad I dont waste my money on a higher octane and wasted even more money on a intake. STOCK RULES!! :lol: Well except for my modified 3.
 
#17 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

[quote author=M3-S link=topic=56566.msg1006424#msg1006424 date=1160635322]
Ic, where do u have ur droung points for ur bcc?
[/quote]

one of the bolts on the throttle body, left front strut, and then one on the far left corner of the engine.
 
#18 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

[quote author=axelasunlight link=topic=56566.msg1006401#msg1006401 date=1160633772]
This is one of the coolest write ups I've seen in awhile. I glad I dont waste my money on a higher octane and wasted even more money on a intake.  STOCK RULES!!  :lol: Well except for my modified 3.
[/quote]

Thank man! I never said CAIs are a waste - in fact I'll be post the dyno I did after this wit the Injen fully installed. It's trying to use a CAI as a SRI without getting cooler air to thats a waste.
 
#20 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

nice write up and great work man!
 
#21 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

nice man
well we gotta dyno meet when i get my F2

but can u tell me why wiz can not beat me when i am on 93 and when i am on lower he is always winning?
 
#22 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

[quote author=eurotuner link=topic=56566.msg1007802#msg1007802 date=1160693715]
nice man
well we gotta dyno meet when i get my F2

but can u tell me why wiz can not beat me when i am on 93 and when i am on lower he is always winning?
[/quote]

cuz wiz has a sedan? 8) j/k. maybe ur cars a freak? even if it made a a gain of 5whp peak I don't think it would have made a huge difference. Good lunching and shifting would seem to make a bigger difference.
 
#24 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

[quote author=Keiichi link=topic=56566.msg1007858#msg1007858 date=1160695626]
Very interesting.

Are you going to go back with a CAI dyno?
[/quote]

Yeah I already did. Writing it up right now. :D
 
#25 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

[quote author=lc link=topic=56566.msg1007864#msg1007864 date=1160695776]
[quote author=Keiichi link=topic=56566.msg1007858#msg1007858 date=1160695626]
Very interesting.

Are you going to go back with a CAI dyno?
[/quote]

Yeah I already did. Writing it up right now.  :D
[/quote] :hyper: :hyper: :hyper:
 
#26 ·
Re: Dyno Dynamics 2.3 MTX Hatch 3rd Gear Pull

Dyno Sessoion III - 9/30/2006
CAI

Alright so this ones a lot shorter (and thank god cause I'm tired of writing). The next day I lifted the car up at home and got the intake all sorted out and install properly. The car seemed to take a few minutes to adjust but the RPMs finally settled down to where they normally were. Using my OBDII monitoring software I monitored my car for the next few days. To my surprise at highway speeds the IAT was reading as low as 2 degrees over the ambient air temperature! Woohoo! Of course you know I had to go back to get it redyno'd! This one was going to be simple and very precise. Three pulls with the Injen CAI fully installed with 87 octane fuel, and then three more pulls with an almost full tank of 89 (not just the 4+ gallons I had been adding before). The car would also have 10 days to for the ECU to adjust between in installing the intake and doing the dyno so no "well maybe more gains if it adjusted more" or "well any gains made will be lost when the ECU adjusts" crap!

Temperature was about 90 degrees, 32 blah blah blah





Well what a difference temperature makes when you can pull cool air instead of hot air coming off the engine!!! Once the car warmed up all the pulls consistently showed 132whp (a gain of about 5.6 to be exact) and about 129lbs to the wheels. Finally real gains this time!! :lol: Now run 5 (the red one) did look kind of odd on the low-end and I'm not sure what to make of that. Anyways with the tank nearly finished off it was time to take her down, drive to a nearby gas station and fill her up completely with 89. Got back and strapped the car back onto the dyno, and what did we see? Well for one we for sure didn't see any lost as we did with 91+ oct. In fact there seemed to be some low-end gain much like the one freak pull on the 87 except a little better looking so I can't rule out that the 89 didn’t do something for the cars low-end torque. There was also a very small .5 gain in peak whp as well (in fact the last run was the strongest) but it’s so minute that it's really questionable whether it was the 89 making the difference or not. Sorry guys, I can't give definitive answer on using 89 octane in conjunction with the AIT mod (yet!). I'm going to attempt to monitor it and maybe go back and dyno after using 89 for awhile to see if there are some long term gains to be had.


87 Octane with Injen CAI



89 Octane with Injen CAI



Video
http://www.groovesubstation.com/personal/lolita/2006-09-30_dyno/CAI Dyno 002.wmv

Unfortunately the these graphs are setup a little differently than the other ones, but I'm going to try and get a single graph put together with the data of the best pulls for easier comparison. Any questions? :)
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top