Topic: Advanced Ignition Timing Mod (Read 79588 times)

Monzsta · « **on:** February 02, 2006, 07:40:07 PM »

Well, in my ongoing mission to thwart the ECU, I think I finally pulled one over on the little bugger. The engine always felt a little lazy to me, and even in the worst conditions, I never heard any spark knock. After reading the timing put in by the ECU, I determined the engine could benefit from more timing. There are two ways to do this.

1. Flash programming the ECU to alter the timing map (not an available option yet.)
2. Alter the position of the crank sensor.

I chose option 2, as it's the only way at this point. I went to examine the sensor, with the idea of modifying or making a new bracket for it to allow some adjustability, when lo and behold, Mazda had already done it for me with a nicely slotted sensor at it's mounting point.

After removing the belly pan and the passenger side splash shield, I turned the tire out to the right to allow a little working room.
The sensor was held in place by two 8mm bolts, one being partially obstructed by the A/C belt.

I then marked the sensor's original position, (wich was 3/4 of the slot down) with a permanent marker, and loosened the bolts. Looking at the sensor thru the wheel well, I slid it counter clockwise all the way (down toward the ground) and snugged the bolts back up. BE CAREFUL with these bolts! They only need to be snug and are very easy to strip.

I then reassembled the splash shields and started it up. The engine started smoothly, no CEL, and settled into it's usual idle. After a short trip around the block, I heard a slight spark rattle when I approached 7,000, confirming the timing had indeed been advanced. After a few more times to the redline, the rattle subsided, indicating the ECM was beginning to finaly utilize the knock sensor and pull a little timing. The engine feels a little crisper, and hopefully I'll see a few more MPG.

BC3I · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2006, 07:45:21 PM »

wow nice.

red_genisis · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2006, 08:06:00 PM »

so what exacty are the benefits of doing this

Monzsta · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2006, 08:53:05 PM »

More power, better mileage. I'll post more on it tomorrow, after my 80 mile round trip to work.

red_genisis · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2006, 09:03:14 PM »

if it turns out good, take a few pics of the senser a post em....oh and are there any draw backs to this

superjudge · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2006, 09:12:50 PM »

This is seen in the Ausi/VW world and there is a gain in power, or at least it feels. I haven't heard any long term issues with it though. Monzta is right about the bolts though. Longevity of the VVT unit may be questionable over time, but keep us posted. I would avise anyone wanting to do this to be careful though, the ECU is very delicate.

Monzsta · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2006, 09:23:10 PM »

Quote from: superjudge on February 02, 2006, 09:12:50 PM

This is seen in the Ausi/VW world and there is a gain in power, or at least it feels. I haven't heard any long term issues with it though. Monzta is right about the bolts though. Longevity of the VVT unit may be questionable over time, but keep us posted. I would avise anyone wanting to do this to be careful though, the ECU is very delicate.

To wit; the ECU isn't in danger, worst case scenario is you strip the little bolts and/or get a CEL, which is why you mark the position of the sensor so you can return it to its original position if needed. The VVT has nothing to do with this, as the sensor reads off the little teeth on the crank pulley. Just be careful with the bolts and this is probably one of the safer mods you can do.

superjudge · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2006, 09:25:38 PM »

Ohh I stand corrected, thanks for straightening that out.

Monzsta · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2006, 09:29:27 PM »

No problem. I'm a little worried about fooling with the VVT yet, as I don't have enough information on it yet. There is some scan tool data I can't identify that I suspect is related to the VVT but I haven't proven it out yet.

superjudge · « **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2006, 09:40:28 PM »

I was actually thinking of something else when I posted that... I don;t think there is a scan tool availible as of yet.

Titanium · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2006, 10:09:46 PM »

I can't say for sure but I believe that when the knock sensor detects pre-detonation it will drop the timing much below what the timing would be set from the factory. This certainly has some potential, but I would adjust it until I would never hear detonation. Premium fuel would help in this as well. I am interested in this so I hope others will try this and give feedback.

hoffo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2006, 10:22:17 PM »

Quote from: Titanium on February 02, 2006, 10:09:46 PM

I can't say for sure but I believe that when the knock sensor detects pre-detonation it will drop the timing much below what the timing would be set from the factory. This certainly has some potential, but I would adjust it until I would never hear detonation. Premium fuel would help in this as well. I am interested in this so I hope others will try this and give feedback.

Yes that is typically the case with most timing systems on EFI cars that i know about. Hopefully it isn't knocking your timing down to stock or below levels otherwise there is no sense in this unless you use high octane.

deepsleep · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2006, 10:40:23 PM »

i accidently filled my car up with premium today!

maybe i should try this tomorrow? what kinds of gains are we talkin? 1-4 hp? or like 10+?

MajesticBlueNTO · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2006, 11:28:34 PM »

Cool mod Monzsta!

Here is some data pulled from my scan tool when I was stock. The base timing varies from 6.5 to 10 degrees at idle. The ECU advances the timing to as high as 50.5 degrees at part throttle (1939RPM) and 46mph (74km/h).

0   mph
6.5   deg
699   RPM

0   mph
8.5   deg
694   RPM

0   mph
9   deg
689   RPM

46   mph
50.5   deg
1939   RPM

61   mph
47.5   deg
2598   RPM

AzMs3 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2006, 01:11:09 AM »

This has actually been posted awhile ago, but retarding timing for the turbo guys.

This is a very simple thing to do, I'd like to see it done ona dyno.
I doubt there would be huge gains, if anything at all it will be very small gains, maybe drivablitly improvement.

red_genisis · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2006, 02:02:11 AM »

i might try this after class 2marrow but can some give me a pic of the sensor just so i can be sure im messin with the right thing (i am the world champion f#$k up)

mica3speedy · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2006, 09:48:01 AM »

this sounds interesting... keep us posted on how it's working for you 8) .

Monzsta · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2006, 12:19:06 AM »

After the 80 mile beat down, everything's okay, the engine revs freer, no spark knock, it seems to be an improvement. (could be the new mod placebo effect) Next I'll see how much fuel I use during the next week. Feel free to try it. No pics yet.

MPTX · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2006, 03:51:09 PM »

I think that i will try this today.

mica3speedy · « **Reply #19 on:** February 11, 2006, 01:48:20 PM »

it's been a week now... any updates?

MrTea · « **Reply #20 on:** February 11, 2006, 02:43:19 PM »

this should give you the jist of it, though this is on a 6 and not a 3. but you can see the sensor on the left side, just loosen the 2 bolts and move, retighten.

:::edit::: and i'm completely retarted (no pun there) which is why my sensor is pushed all the way up.

MPTX · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2006, 02:54:18 PM »

is it lil lever looking thing that u pushed up that is the timing sensor.

MrTea · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2006, 03:04:21 PM »

sorta, it's not a "timing sensor", it's a crank shaft possition sensor...the ecu actually manipulates timing according to the algorithm it gets from this sensor. yeah, pretty much the same, but not quite as easy.

and yes, it's pushed all the way up in the pic.

MPTX · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2006, 04:40:24 PM »

Quote from: MrTea on February 11, 2006, 02:43:19 PM

this should give you the jist of it, though this is on a 6 and not a 3. but you can see the sensor on the left side, just loosen the 2 bolts and move, retighten.

:::edit::: and i'm completely retarted (no pun there) which is why my sensor is pushed all the way up.

I just want to make sure about this. you mention two bolts earlier is it the thing that is bolted to the ac belt thing or is it that lil lever that you see in the top right of the pic pushed all the way up?

sorry for the repeat ?

MrTea · « **Reply #24 on:** February 11, 2006, 04:44:00 PM »

if you look at the center of the crank pulley, the sensor is at about 8:00. center/left on the pic, you can see where i moved the bolts.

ak47clown · « **Reply #25 on:** February 11, 2006, 06:27:12 PM »

looks pretty interseting to me

mica3speedy · « **Reply #26 on:** February 12, 2006, 12:09:18 PM »

Quote from: MrTea on February 11, 2006, 02:43:19 PM

this should give you the jist of it, though this is on a 6 and not a 3. but you can see the sensor on the left side, just loosen the 2 bolts and move, retighten.

:::edit::: and i'm completely retarted (no pun there) which is why my sensor is pushed all the way up.

so to advance the timing, do the opposite of yours... and push it down

?

Monzsta · « **Reply #27 on:** February 12, 2006, 12:19:40 PM »

Yes, slide it down toward the ground.

After a week, the results aren't groundbreaking, but noticeable. The engine is a little more peppier, more so toward the rev limiter, where before it seemed to ease up a bit just before the rev limiter, now it eagerly crashes into it, making me wish the rev limiter was a bit higher. (probably not wise with a 3.75" stroke cast crank engine!) Fuel mileage hasn't changed.

I'm ready to take this a bit further, and it'll work for you as well, Mr Tea. Measure the air gap between the trigger wheel and sensor. Then remove the sensor and carefully push out the metal inserts. Reinstall the sensor and move to the new position. After determining your position, reestablish the air gap to what it was previousely. It should be worth a few more degrees either advanced or retarded.

On a side note; Mr Tea, was there any noticeable difference when you installed the new pulley? Is it lighter, or just an under drive pulley? Being the 3 has an electric power steering pump (upgrade for your 6 maybe?) an underdrive pulley probably wouldn't be as noticeable.

hate_romania · « **Reply #28 on:** February 13, 2006, 12:30:37 AM »

Quote from: Monzsta on February 12, 2006, 12:19:40 PM

Yes, slide it down toward the ground.

After a week, the results aren't groundbreaking, but noticeable. The engine is a little more peppier, more so toward the rev limiter, where before it seemed to ease up a bit just before the rev limiter, now it eagerly crashes into it, making me wish the rev limiter was a bit higher. (probably not wise with a 3.75" stroke cast crank engine!) Fuel mileage hasn't changed.

I'm ready to take this a bit further, and it'll work for you as well, Mr Tea. Measure the air gap between the trigger wheel and sensor. Then remove the sensor and carefully push out the metal inserts. Reinstall the sensor and move to the new position. After determining your position, reestablish the air gap to what it was previousely. It should be worth a few more degrees either advanced or retarded.

On a side note; Mr Tea, was there any noticeable difference when you installed the new pulley? Is it lighter, or just an under drive pulley? Being the 3 has an electric power steering pump (upgrade for your 6 maybe?) an underdrive pulley probably wouldn't be as noticeable.

can this cause a cel?? adn if you want to take it back to stock how can you align then perfectly?

MrTea · « **Reply #29 on:** February 13, 2006, 03:26:59 AM »

it's pretty obvious how to put it back to stock, as you can see on my sensor where it sat originally.

i don't have my car, so i can't do anything at this point. which leads me to answer the question about the pulley. this was a focus pulley i test fit as it's the same setup on the focus as the 6. well my car didn't like it and i ended up burning a valve and possibly screwing up a ring on #1. so unless you are getting the pulley from SR, don't bother. the teeth on the focus gear are different by just a tad, ford uses a different ecu, different wave for the sensor, so timing took a poop....especially under boost.

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Author Topic: Advanced Ignition Timing Mod (Read 79588 times)